1 1 NATIONAL SYMPOSIUM 2 ON 3 ATHLETICS REFORM 4 5 6 HELD AT THE INTERCONTINENTAL NEW ORLEANS, 7 LOUISIANA 8 9 10 PRESENTED BY TULANE UNIVERSITY 11 12 13 NOVEMBER 11, 2003 14 15 1:30 -- 2:45 P.M. 16 17 18 First Panel Discussion: 19 20 21 "ATHLETICS REFORM" 22 23 24 Proceedings reported by Susie Taylor Rumsfeld, 25 R.P.R., C.C.R. ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 4 MODERATOR: 5 C. THOMAS MCMILLEN 6 Businessman 7 Former U.S. Congressman 8 Former NBA player 9 10 11 PANELISTS: 12 JAMES J. DUDERSTADT 13 President Emeritus, 14 University of Michigan 15 16 WILLIAM G. BOWEN 17 Author 18 President, 19 The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation 20 Former President, 21 Princeton University 22 23 SCOTT S. COWEN 24 President, 25 Tulane University ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 3 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 3 Page 4 Cover page ................................ 1 5 Appearances ............................... 2 6 Index ..................................... 3 7 Opening remarks, C. Thomas McMillen ....... 4 8 Introduction of panelists ................. 7 9 Remarks by James J. Duderstadt ............ 8 10 Remarks by Scott S. Cowen ................. 21 11 Remarks by William G. Bowen ............... 31 12 Question and Answers ...................... 43 13 Closing remarks, C. Thomas McMillen ....... 68 14 Reporter's Certificate..................... 69 15 Reporter's Page ........................... 70 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 MR. MCMILLEN: Ladies and 3 gentlemen, we're ready to begin with Panel I on 4 the National Symposium on Athletics Reform. I 5 appreciate all of you being here. I certainly 6 want to thank Tulane University for hosting 7 this. 8 My job in this Panel I is to 9 have a discussion of the real issues in college 10 sports and from the perspective of college 11 presidents, current and former, our 12 distinguished panelists here today. 13 When we talk about real issues 14 there's a lot to talk about whether it's 15 academic integrity and presidential control or 16 student welfare or bowl issues, conference 17 realignments, coaches' salaries, Title IX. 18 There's a host of issues. And so, we will have 19 a lot to talk about. 20 As I discharge my duties here I 21 will adhere to the admonition of -- that 22 Elizabeth Taylor made to her seventh husband 23 when she said, "I won't keep you long." I 24 promise to keep this panel moving, and I've 25 urged the panelists to keep their remarks each ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 5 1 to ten minutes so that we can have plenty of 2 time for the Q and A. So each of our 3 distinguished panelists will give you their 4 views on -- their thoughts on reform, and then 5 we can open it up. 6 By way of background, I've been 7 active in intercollegiate reform issues for 8 about 15 years, more than 15 years. I served 9 in the U.S. Congress in the State of Maryland 10 for six years, and I was one of the cosponsors 11 of the Student Right to Know legislation which 12 resulted in graduation rates for our 13 universities and colleges for their student 14 athletes being publicized. 15 I've been on the Knight 16 Commission since its inception or in the Knight 17 Commission I and Knight Commission II. I've 18 been an author on these issues. And finally I 19 served as cochair of the President's Council on 20 Physical Fitness under President Clinton where 21 I could look back and look at these issues from 22 a larger perspective with respect to our sports 23 policy in America. 24 I'll just give you one little 25 frame of reference of mine before we start, and ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 6 1 then I will introduce the panelists. Having 2 worked on these issues for a long time and 3 having really been a product of student 4 athletics in our -- in my own life, I'm -- With 5 all due respects to Dr. Brand, I'm not as 6 optimistic. I think it's a very, very 7 difficult challenge changing this system 8 internally. The best analogy I can give you is 9 campaign finance reform as a politician. It's 10 pretty hard to change the rules when the issues 11 are so difficult, the conflicts are so 12 intractable, or the money is so great. 13 There's a lot of issues on the 14 table. Of course, I wish all the stakeholders 15 the best in their efforts to do so. But I 16 guess my view hasn't changed over 15 years. It 17 will -- My view is that it will probably have 18 to be done externally. 19 So I'm here today to -- really 20 to move this panel along to have an open airing 21 of these issues. And I would like to take this 22 opportunity to introduce our panelists. 23 The first two panelists will be 24 discussing the perspective of presidents with 25 respect to Division I. And then Dr. Bowen will ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 7 1 be speaking with respect to Division III. 2 So let me introduce each of the 3 distinguished panelists right now and then let 4 them come up in order. 5 Dr. James Duderstadt is the 6 president emeritus and president of science and 7 engineering at the University of Michigan. 8 While president at Michigan he was chair of the 9 Big 10 Athletic Conference. Dr. Duderstadt is 10 the author of numerous articles and books 11 including Intercollegiate Athletics and the 12 American University, a University President's 13 Perspective, winner of the 2002 University of 14 Michigan Press Book Award. 15 Our next panelist, of course, 16 you know, is Dr. Scott Cowen. He's the 14th 17 president of Tulane University, holds joint 18 appearances in both the School of Business and 19 Professor of Economics in the Liberal Arts 20 School at Tulane. He came to Tulane from Case 21 Western Reserve where he was on the faculty for 22 23 years. 23 And our final panelist is 24 Dr. Bill Bowen, president of the Andrew W. 25 Mellon Foundation since 1988 and is the former ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 8 1 president of Princeton University where he also 2 served as professor of economics. Dr. Bowen 3 just wrote Reclaiming the Game: College Sports 4 and Education Values (2003) with Sarah Levin 5 and The Game of Life: College Sports and 6 Educational Values (2001) with James Shulman. 7 We're very, very fortunate to 8 have three distinguished panelists to give us 9 the perspective of college presidents on the 10 issues of college reform. So with that, I will 11 turn it over to the Dr. Duderstadt. Thank you. 12 (Applause.) 13 MR. DUDERSTADT: Well, I don't 14 know about you folks, but this feels a little 15 bit like deja vu all over again to me. We've 16 come together to discuss the reform of college 17 sports, but as the press conference this 18 morning indicated, perhaps with a hidden agenda 19 to commercialize them even further by revising 20 the BCS system. 21 I'd like to begin, however, by 22 commending President Cowen, Tulane, and the 23 Knight Foundation for putting this meeting 24 together and commend again Myles Brand who's 25 been fighting a valiant if sometimes lonely ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 9 1 battle on behalf of truth, justice, and 2 academic values within the NCAA. I sometimes 3 feel that he's the premiere example of the 4 challenge of herding cats in our society today 5 because of the great diversity of that 6 organization. But nevertheless, he is making a 7 difference to articulate a vision for the 8 future of college sports on our campus. 9 I think my role this afternoon 10 is to represent the lunatic fringe or perhaps 11 even beyond because I'm in that small minority 12 that believe that the ever-increasing 13 commercialization, professionalization, and 14 corruption of college sports is headed for the 15 edge of the cliff. And unfortunately if it 16 goes over, it could take many of our 17 institutions with it. 18 Now, unlike Scott Cowen, I am a 19 has-been university president. So I have 20 regained two great characteristics: academic 21 freedom and tenure. So I will tell it the way 22 I see it and probably not the way I would have 23 had I been an acting, sitting president at 24 Michigan. 25 In this spirit of a ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 10 1 provocateur, therefore, let me begin by noting 2 that after four decades as a college athlete, a 3 faculty member, a provost, a president at the 4 University of Michigan, member and chair of the 5 President's Council, of the Big 10 Conference, 6 I arrived at several conclusions. It took four 7 decades to teach me this, I'm afraid. 8 Number one, I believe that most 9 of intercollegiate athletics in our colleges 10 and universities are valuable and appropriate 11 activities for our universities. However, 12 big-time college football and basketball, that 13 is, Division I-A, I believe stand apart because 14 they have clearly become commercial 15 entertainment businesses. Today I believe they 16 have little if any relevance to the academic 17 mission of the university. They're based on a 18 culture, a set of values that while perhaps 19 appropriate for show business are viewed as 20 highly corrupt by the academy and deemed 21 corrosive to our academic mission. 22 Number two, I think I can make 23 a case for the relevance of college sports to 24 our educational mission to the extent they 25 provide participatory activity for students, ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 11 1 but I can find no compelling reason why the 2 American university should conduct 3 intercollegiate athletics programs at the 4 current highly commercialized and 5 professionalized level of big-time college 6 football and basketball simply for the 7 entertainment of the American public, the 8 financial benefit of coaches, athletic 9 directors, conference commissioners, and the 10 profit of television network sponsors and 11 sports apparel manufacturers. 12 If you think about it for a 13 moment or at least in my mind, there are only 14 three reasons for getting engaged in 15 intercollegiate athletics: because it benefits 16 student athletes, because it benefits the 17 university, its reputation, its sense of 18 community; and because it benefits the larger 19 community in which the institution is imbedded. 20 I think you can make a good 21 case that today Division I-A football and 22 basketball fail to meet all three criteria. 23 Third and most significantly is 24 my growing conviction that big-time college 25 sports do far more damage to the university, to ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 12 1 its students, its faculty, its leadership, its 2 reputation, its credibility than most realize 3 or at least are willing to admit. The examples 4 are numerous, have been displayed time and time 5 again. They -- This is always a difficult city 6 for me to come to, not because it was exactly 7 ten years ago that a Michigan basketball player 8 called a time-out in the last minute of the 9 national championship but because of the ten 10 years after that that we found out there were 11 other certain problems with that basketball 12 player and some of his colleagues. 13 But nevertheless, far too many 14 of our athletics programs exploit young people, 15 recruiting them with the promise of a college 16 education or a lucrative professional career 17 only to have the majority of Division I-A 18 football and basketball players achieve 19 neither. Scandals in intercollegiate athletics 20 have damaged the reputation of many of our 21 colleges and universities. Big-time college 22 football and basketball have put inappropriate 23 pressure on university governance as boosters, 24 politicians, and the media all attempt to 25 influence governing boards and university ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 13 1 leadership. 2 And the impact of 3 intercollegiate athletics on university culture 4 and values has been damaging with inappropriate 5 behavior of both athletes and coaches all too 6 frequently tolerated and excused. 7 So too I believe the commercial 8 culture of the entertainment industry that 9 characterizes big-time college football and 10 basketball is not only orthogonal to academic 11 values but it's corrosive and corruptive to the 12 academic enterprise. 13 Now, you know, it really 14 doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out 15 what to do about this, and actually I'm a 16 rocket scientist by background. But 17 nevertheless, let me kind of set this out for 18 you. 19 First, if our purpose is 20 education, there is absolutely no excuse 21 whatsoever for allowing freshmen to be eligible 22 for varsity competition. Why in heaven's name 23 would we allow someone to step on the field 24 before they step into the classroom? 25 Second, I believe very strongly ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 14 1 and support Myles Brand's plea for meeting the 2 true needs of student athletes. But actually I 3 think the athletic scholarship, which I think 4 increasingly is in danger of being interpreted 5 as pay for play, should be replaced by 6 need-based financial aid but meeting the true 7 need. 8 The mainstreaming of coaching 9 compensation in employment policies, any other 10 university faculty member would be fired 11 instantly if they did what most of our coaches 12 do and get away with it. 13 The establishment of firm 14 faculty control over all aspects affecting 15 academic integrity, the admission of student 16 athletes, the assessment of student progress 17 toward degrees, the constraining of student 18 participation, and competitive schedules. 19 And finally perhaps most 20 controversially to this group, the elimination 21 of those mega events such as the BCS, or even 22 more seriously, the possibility of a football 23 play-off, the Final Four March Madness that are 24 so grossly distorted by commercialism that they 25 exploit student athletes, corrupt our ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 15 1 institutions, and trample upon our academic 2 values and priorities. 3 Now, I would acknowledge that 4 what I've just said is not particular new to 5 most of you. It's actually been said many 6 times over and over again for almost a century. 7 But what to do about it I think may be new. I 8 have become convinced that working through 9 athletic organizations such as the NCAA, the 10 conferences, or the athletic departments is 11 futile because in a sense the foxes are in the 12 hen house in these organizations with the 13 exception, of course, of 14 Myles Brand who is one of us. 15 The problem is that those 16 organizations are led primarily by those that 17 have the most to gain from the further 18 commercialization of college sports. In my 19 mind the primary purpose of the NCAA has been 20 in the past, although Myles is trying to change 21 this, but it has been to maintain and promote 22 the commercial value of college sports, not to 23 protect the welfare of student athletes or 24 higher education. 25 I believe that reform can only ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 16 1 succeed if it proceeds through academic 2 organizations characterized by the academic 3 interests of higher education and educational 4 values rather than the commercial values in the 5 entertainment industry. In the past I 6 recommended a process in which the presidents 7 of organizations like the American Council on 8 Education, The Association of American 9 Universities, and so forth would hammer out a 10 disarmament treaty with institutional 11 ratification of that treaty as a requirement 12 for membership of those academic organizations. 13 But actually I've begun to 14 suspect that even that is fatally flawed as 15 well. In fact, the major reason why the effort 16 to reform college sports over the last couple 17 of decades has moved so slowly is I worry that 18 we continue to bet on the wrong horse. We 19 continue to propose that university presidents 20 take the lead in reform of college sports. But 21 in reality very little happens, and the mad 22 rush toward more and more commercialization and 23 corruption continues. 24 I think this shouldn't be too 25 surprising to you because university presidents ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 17 1 are really caught between a rock and a hard 2 place, between a public demanding high quality 3 entertainment from the commercial college 4 sports industry they're paying for and 5 governing boards who have the capacity to fire 6 presidents who rock the university boat 7 particularly on issues like college sports. 8 It should be clear that few 9 contemporary university presidents have the 10 capacity, the will, or the appetite to lead 11 true reform of a potential land mine area like 12 college sports. But all hope is not lost 13 because there's one important ally remaining 14 that could challenge the movement of college 15 sports away from the collegiate model toward 16 the professional model, and that's the 17 university faculty. 18 In the end it is the governing 19 faculty of an institution that's responsible 20 for its academic integrity. Faculty members 21 have been given the ultimate protection of 22 tenure that enable them to confront the forces 23 of darkness that could savage educational 24 values. I think the serious nature of the 25 threats posed to the university and its ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 18 1 academic values by the commercialization and 2 corruption of big-time college sports has risen 3 to the point where it's time to call on the 4 faculty to meet their responsibilities through 5 their elected bodies such as faculty senates to 6 step up and defend the academic integrity of 7 their institution by demanding substantive 8 reform of intercollegiate athletics. 9 Now, to their credit, many 10 faculty organizations are beginning to do this, 11 sweeping first through the Pac-10, across the 12 Big 10, the Southeastern Conference, the 13 Atlantic Coast Conference, and now to the 14 American Association of University Professors. 15 Faculty members are stepping forward to hammer 16 out a set of guidelines and demand change. 17 The next obvious step in this 18 process is for faculties to challenge the 19 trustees of our universities who in the end 20 must be accountable, held accountable for the 21 integrity of their institution. Of course, 22 there's always going to be some trustees who 23 are more beholding to the football coach than 24 to academic values. But most trustees are 25 dedicated volunteers with deep commitments to ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 19 1 their institution and to its educational 2 mission. I think if the faculty hold the 3 trustees' feet to the fire, in the end they 4 will take sufficient action to provide in turn 5 a political umbrella under which concerned 6 university presidents can act. 7 In a sense I think the American 8 system of shared governance which does involve 9 strong faculty participation of the trusteeship 10 or lay boards and the administrative leadership 11 of presidents may be the true key to reform 12 because it works within the educational 13 culture. 14 In conclusion, I'm one of a 15 growing number today that believe that higher 16 education has entered an era of extraordinary 17 challenge and change driven by the powerful 18 social, economic, and technological forces that 19 are changing the world about us. In that kind 20 of environment it's incumbent upon our 21 institutions to drop back and consider our most 22 fundamental purposes, our values, what we're 23 all about, our roles. And in this activity 24 every one of our activities including college 25 sports needs to be put back on the table and ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 20 1 reevaluated. 2 If we're to retain 3 intercollegiate athletics as an appropriate 4 university effort, I believe it's essential 5 that we insist upon the primacy of academic 6 over commercial values by decoupling our 7 athletic programs from the entertainment 8 industry and reconnecting them with the 9 educational mission of our institutions. 10 In conclusion, I believe 11 there's little justification for the American 12 university to mount and sustain big-time 13 college football and basketball programs at the 14 current commercial and professional level. 15 We've moved too far along that continuum from 16 the collegiate toward the professional model. 17 The American university is 18 simply too important to the future of this 19 nation to be threatened by the ever-increasing 20 commercialization and corruption of college 21 sports. 22 Thank you very much. 23 (Applause.) 24 MR. MCMILLEN: Thank you, Jim. 25 And now we go to Scott. And ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 21 1 we'll try to keep it at ten minutes. But we 2 appreciate your remarks very much. Thank you. 3 MR. COWEN: Tom, I appreciate 4 the extra reminder for me to keep it a ten 5 minutes. 6 I wrote these remarks about a 7 week ago when I was in a very whimsical mood. 8 And I put a title to the remarks. They're 9 called "Don Quixote's Ten Thoughts Regarding 10 Athletics Reform." For those of you who know 11 me, you know for the last five months I've been 12 tilting at windmills, so why not have one more 13 day at it today. 14 I start with my thesis, and 15 it's a simple thesis. Division I-A athletics 16 is increasingly out of sync with the mission 17 and values of our universities, and the basic 18 purpose of athletics is espoused in the NCAA's 19 mission statement. It is time to reel 20 athletics in, change the culture and 21 operations of this part of our universities, 22 and rethink athletics' role with the context of 23 our missions as institutions of higher 24 learning. If we are unsuccessful in this 25 effort, it will be to the detriment of higher ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 22 1 education. 2 To that end I would like to 3 briefly mention ten thoughts about reform. 4 Some of these ideas are old, some are new, and 5 some are heresy. Let me start with some old 6 and true comments: 7 One, we desperately need to 8 continue the NCAA's current initiatives and 9 academic reform. This is the most important 10 reform initiative that I have witnessed in the 11 last 20 years in intercollegiate athletics. It 12 is an effort to put the word "student" back in 13 "student athlete." It is an effort to hold 14 institutions accountable for the academic 15 performance of their student athletes, and to 16 realize penalties or disincentives if they in 17 fact do not help their student athletes 18 progress through college and to graduate. 19 To me this is the single most 20 important thing the NCAA is working on, and we 21 need to put all our effort into making this 22 proposal successful. It is not merely as 23 ambitious as it should be, but it is so much 24 better than anything else that I have seen. 25 I remember a few years ago when ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 23 1 Tulane University was undefeated in football, 2 and there was one other university in the 3 country that had that same claim. The 4 graduation rate for our football players was 80 5 percent. That other team was 20 percent. They 6 went on to glory and visibility and everything 7 else, and we were shunned to the side. What a 8 perverse system that is that it rewards those 9 that have programs that in fact do not have 10 student athletes and in fact punishes those 11 that do. And perhaps this academic initiative 12 will change the course on that. 13 Number two, promote 14 transparency in reporting the financial 15 condition of athletic departments. If I 16 learned one lesson out of the intercollegiate 17 athletics review last year at Tulane 18 University, it is that we do not know the true 19 costs of running our programs. I think the 20 NCAA recent report, "The Empirical Effects of 21 Collegiate Athletics: An Interim Report" was 22 an excellent start. And I'm glad it was 23 labeled an interim report because there were 24 clearly gaps in that report. But I'm also 25 pleased to tell you that that study group is ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 24 1 looking to fill those gaps and give us some 2 more comprehensive report. 3 But we can't begin to think 4 about athletes in our universities until we 5 have some true sense of what it does cost us to 6 run these programs. And every effort we can do 7 at transparency and publicly disseminating that 8 information I think is very useful. 9 Point number three, continue to 10 empirically examine the relationship between 11 athletics and the value and benefits it brings 12 to our universities. Myles in his speech today 13 I think touched on a very important point: 14 What is the value that athletics brings to our 15 institutions? There's a lot of anecdotal 16 evidence, a lot of statements that I have seen 17 in the past about the relationship between 18 athletics and admissions, athletics and 19 alumni-giving, athletic and academic 20 reputation. Yet there is not good empirical 21 evidence to support what I call these myths. 22 And I think there have been two 23 excellent starts, if you will, in clarifying 24 these myths. One is by Bill Bowen. And I'm 25 sure Bill will talk about this. In his first ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 25 1 book, the Shape of -- The Game of Life, Bill, I 2 think, attacked those myths head-on and 3 provided some valuable insight into the values 4 and the benefits that athletics can have for 5 our colleges and universities. 6 And once again, I think the 7 NCAA study released in August began to touch on 8 those same issues. But if we are really to 9 attack athletics, not let's do it emotionally 10 and passionately; let's do it logically and 11 rationally based on data. And the more data we 12 have the more helpful it is in making 13 decisions. 14 Point number four, find ways to 15 reduce the cost of competition. That's why 16 everybody is scrambling to get more revenue, 17 because it's more costly. Let's reduce the 18 cost of competition. 19 Two things I would mention 20 right off: I think the new Division I-A 21 membership criteria is a step in the wrong 22 direction. I regret that the NCAA ever passed 23 that legislation because all it did is to make 24 competition more expensive, not less. 25 In addition to that, I would ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 26 1 love to see the scholarship requirements 2 lowered, especially for football, from 85 to 3 65. That not only helps on the cost side, it 4 will help on Title IX and have a ripple effect, 5 a positive ripple effect on nonrevenue sports. 6 So anything we can do to lower the cost of 7 competition will put less pressure on the 8 revenue side and help to deemphasize 9 commercialization and the entertainment value 10 of athletics. 11 Point number five, we need to 12 more effectively integrate athletics and 13 student athletes into the culture of our 14 universities. Anything we can do to make sure 15 that the student athlete has a full and 16 comprehensive collegiate experience is very, 17 very positive. I think the movement over the 18 years for special majors, separate residence 19 halls, eating tables, you name it, are all 20 movements in the wrong direction. And I 21 suspect later on when you hear from Todd Turner 22 at Vanderbilt and the efforts there to more 23 successfully integrate athletics and student 24 athletes into the culture of our universities, 25 that's very positive, so they get the maximum ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 27 1 experience and exposure from being a college 2 student. 3 Point number six, continue to 4 enhance student athlete welfare, not by paying 5 them more money, but by reducing time 6 requirements, pressure, and expectations. We 7 should be going in the other direction. So if 8 we are concerned about that there are more 9 games in a football season or more basketball 10 or football, let's go in the other direction 11 and reduce the length of the schedule, reduce 12 the requirements we have for practice time on 13 athletes, allow them to have some of the free 14 time that they so richly deserve to truly be 15 part of a university community. 16 Number seven, let's agree -- 17 And it was funny hearing Jim say this. Let's 18 agree to multilateral disarmament of 19 investments in athletics. Somehow presidents, 20 trustees, faculties meet together and sign this 21 multilateral agreement that we are going to 22 disarm because at the rate we are going for 23 facilities and coaches' salaries and you 24 combine that with everything else, we will 25 spend ourselves into oblivion and have to ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 28 1 become even more commercialized and 2 entertainment-driven than we are today. 3 Point number eight, find ways 4 to unify and enhance the vitality of Division 5 I-A. Start by eliminating the two-tiered 6 system created by the Bowls' championship 7 series. I promised today that I would say no 8 more about the BCS than that. But what that 9 has done has been very divisive for Division 10 I-A, and it does not bode well for the future 11 that we have a two-tiered system. 12 Point number nine, increase the 13 pressure on an accountability of trustees and 14 university presidents to address 15 athletic-related issues. I think more 16 university presidents -- And I'm probably going 17 to regret that I said this -- should be fired 18 for the scandals that are in their institutions 19 and the mismanagement of athletic departments. 20 All you have to do is fire a few more, and I 21 suspect the rest will get the point. And if 22 they don't, the trustees ought to because 23 unless the trustees see this as an important 24 part of their agenda, I suspect change will 25 never happen. I would go so far as to say that ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 29 1 the NCAA might even change their certification 2 process to require that boards of trustees of 3 universities periodically do a thorough review 4 of athletics articulating their costs and their 5 benefits to the institution and that be part of 6 the certification process. 7 But I guess a little bit unlike 8 Jim where I think faculty have an important 9 role, I do not want to let presidents or 10 trustees off the hook for their responsibility. 11 Number ten, and this is the 12 heresy, I want a czar of intercollegiate 13 athletics. I want to formally empower the 14 NCAA's leadership to guide and direct all 15 aspects of intercollegiate athletics so it can 16 legitimately and forcefully impact necessary 17 change. The system we have right now simply 18 doesn't work. We use the NCAA when it is 19 convenient for us, and we ignore the NCAA when 20 it's equally convenient for us. You can't have 21 it both ways. 22 So I suggest that we as 23 university presidents simply say that the 24 president of the NCAA will be the czar. We 25 will empower him with powers and privileges ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 30 1 that will allow him or her to do their job and 2 ask them to clean up the mess. As a former -- 3 or I should say current professor of strategy, 4 one knows this is a turnaround situation. And 5 many times a democracy does not work in a 6 turnaround situation. You need strong 7 leadership at the top. 8 Clearly the subject of 9 intercollegiate athletics' role in our 10 universities is not a new one. Yet each year 11 the subject takes on new dimensions as this 12 enterprise faces more scandals and becomes 13 increasingly commercialized and 14 entertainment-driven with an even bigger focus 15 on money and power. Perhaps it is too late to 16 put the jeanie back in the bottle, but I'm 17 concerned that if significant improvements are 18 not made fast enough to correct these current 19 deficiencies the situation will further erode 20 the values and missions of our universities. 21 As a former student athlete 22 myself and university president I am a great 23 believer in the role of intercollegiate 24 athletics in our universities. Yet I lament 25 the fact that athletics has lost its way in ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 31 1 many of our institutions, and I sincerely hope 2 we can continue to reform the system so that it 3 adheres to the highest principles that we stand 4 for in higher education. 5 Thank you. 6 (Applause.) 7 MR. BOWEN: You deserve a 8 warning. I am an economist, a card-carrying, 9 quantitative bean-counter type. And I hope you 10 know the definition of an economist. An 11 economist is someone who will estimate your 12 phone number if he doesn't know it. 13 I am going to talk briefly, 14 Tom, briefly about the principal findings from 15 a major empirical study that's gone on for some 16 four years now of athletes and other students 17 in nonscholarship schools, principally the 18 Division III colleges, places like Swarthmore, 19 Oberlin, so forth; but also the Ivy League 20 universities. 21 The main take-aways from this 22 research are the following: One, contrary to 23 what many, many, most people believe, all is 24 not well in the Garden of Eden. I spoke only 25 this morning with a reporter whom I will not ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 32 1 identify who is writing a story on the glories 2 of Ivy League football which he regards as a 3 perfect enterprise. 4 Now, to be sure, we don't have 5 a lot of the big-time sports problems that we 6 see at Ohio State and at all sorts of other 7 places. No, we don't. And people graduate in 8 goodly numbers. They do, absolutely. But that 9 is not enough. And I will now try to explain 10 some of the evidence that suggests that there 11 has been within the nonscholarship schools, the 12 Division III schools, pure and simple places, a 13 continuing division, a divide between the 14 academic and the athletic sides of the house, a 15 drift that is continuing. 16 What is the evidence? One is 17 widespread recognition that the intensity of 18 the experience of being a college athlete, a 19 recruited college athlete at these schools is 20 simply extraordinary these days. I could give 21 you so many examples. I will give you only 22 one. 23 Sarah Levin and I were 24 interviewing a coach at a school that I will 25 not identify. And she was telling us about a ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 33 1 recent scrimmage between her field hockey team 2 and the field hockey team of a smaller college. 3 And we asked her to tell us about the 4 comparison. And she said, "Oh." She said, 5 "Their girls were as fast and as talented as my 6 girls, but we just destroyed them." 7 And I said, "Well, what 8 explains this, just brilliant coaching?" 9 And she said, "Oh, no." She 10 looked at me, and she said, "They had such soft 11 bodies, such soft bodies. My girls condition 12 and they play their sport and they do the 13 amount of studying they have to do, and that's 14 it. They don't go to the show. They don't do 15 this, they don't do that." 16 Now, these are nonscholarship 17 schools, women's sports, just so you know what 18 we're dealing with, what the reality is. 19 Second, athletes enjoy a 20 preferred position in the admissions queue at 21 essentially all of these schools. And at the 22 most selective schools the advantage the 23 athletes enjoy in the admissions queue is huge. 24 At a given SAT level the probability of being 25 admitted if you're a recruited athlete on a ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 34 1 coach's list is something like four to five 2 times the probability of an otherwise similar 3 student who wasn't on the coach's list. Now, 4 that is a huge advantage, and raises all sorts 5 of issues of fairness, allocation, of 6 educational opportunity, and so on. 7 Next finding, contrary again to 8 what most people think, at the schools that 9 we're studying, at these nonscholarship schools 10 recruiting athletes does nothing, nothing for 11 racial or socioeconomic diversity. On the 12 contrary, the students at large contain larger 13 fractions of folks from disadvantaged 14 backgrounds than do the recruited athletes. 15 Next out, next finding, 16 academic outcomes for recruited athletes are 17 worrying. They do graduate in goodly numbers. 18 But I would submit that graduating is not 19 enough. It's not good enough. Students at 20 these places need to take, I think, full 21 advantage of the educational opportunities that 22 they have. And simply getting by isn't my 23 definition of taking full advantage. 24 In the Ivy League schools 25 roughly four out of five, four out of the five, ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 35 1 eighty percent of the recruited athletes 2 playing high profile sports, football, 3 basketball, hockey, end up in the bottom third 4 of the class, eighty percent in the bottom 5 third of the class. 6 Especially troublesome to me is 7 the phenomena that we document in these books, 8 particularly in the second book over and over 9 and over again is a phenomenon of 10 underperformance, very important concept. What 11 is underperformance? Underperformance occurs 12 when a group of people perform less well 13 academically than you would expect them to 14 perform on the basis of the credentials that 15 they brought with them when they entered the 16 school. 17 In other words, if on the basis 18 of test scores, rank in class, all the rest, 19 you predicted that a particular recruited 20 athlete would end up in the 45th percentile of 21 the class, in fact, that person is likely to 22 end up in the 25th percentile. The 23 underperformance number is 20 percentile 24 points, which is huge. I could tell you if 25 there were time, but I know there isn't what I ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 36 1 think drives this phenomena and what the 2 evidence is in support of the factors I think 3 drive it. But I will leave that for now. 4 Underperformance is a serious 5 issue because for a faculty member there's 6 nothing more frustrating than dealing with a 7 student who has obvious potential but just 8 isn't using the potential that's there. The 9 trends documented in these studies are 10 persistent, deep-seated. They're not going to 11 go away by themselves. Myles is right. It's 12 going to take real intervention to change 13 things at this level, never mind big-time 14 level. 15 Now, next thing I want to do 16 quickly is to tell you three lessons I have 17 learned from the post publication discussions 18 of these -- of this latest book. As you can 19 imagine, findings made lots of people very, 20 very angry. Having previously written a book 21 about race in America which engendered some 22 strong feelings also and now having written 23 this book about sports, somebody asked my wife 24 what my problem is, why take on these dreadful, 25 aggravating subjects. And she says, "Don't ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 37 1 worry. He's trained to deal with hostility." 2 Take-aways from a number of 3 hostile discussions, three: First, to an 4 amazing extent colleges and universities, the 5 kind I'm talking about, the nonscholarship 6 schools and especially the athletic 7 establishments at these places live in a state 8 of denial, state of denial. Maybe there are 9 problems elsewhere but certainly not here, not 10 at home. Getting past denial when the facts 11 are right there is something we ought to be 12 able to do. But I must say it's not easy. And 13 I have not succeeded very well at getting past 14 denial. 15 Lesson two, then was then and 16 now is now. In these discussions one hears 17 over and over again of the exploits and 18 successes in later life of the Tom McMillens 19 and the Len Elmores and the Bill Bradleys and 20 the Casmires and all of these folks of 21 yesteryear. And so, isn't it that way today? 22 Well, no, I don't think so. 23 I talked to a distinguished 24 surgeon in New York who's very proud of having 25 been a halfback on a Columbia football team of, ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 38 1 I guess, the Sixties. And he said, "Gee, I 2 loved it and look where I am now, top of my 3 profession." 4 And I looked at him, and I 5 said, "You think the person wearing your number 6 today is like you? Were you a reasonable 7 student?" 8 He said, "Yeah." He said, "I 9 was a Phi Beta Kappa." 10 I said, "Do you think the guy 11 out there wearing your number today is likely 12 to be a Phi Beta Kappa? Not according to our 13 data. What did you do besides play football? 14 Were you involved in campus life?" 15 He said, "Oh, absolutely. I 16 was involved in everything." 17 I said, "Do you think that 18 that's true of the recruited athletes of today 19 who face different sets of time pressures and 20 all the rest?" 21 He says, "Well, no. No, I 22 guess it isn't." 23 So I said, "Do you think it's 24 just likely that your successor wearing Number 25 58 or whatever it is is going to be the head of ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 39 1 Surgery at this hospital?" 2 He said, "Well, no. I guess 3 that isn't so likely, is it." 4 Then is then; now is now. 5 Third lesson from these 6 discussions: The strongest opponents of reform 7 at these schools are the present-day recruited 8 athletes who of course think that what they're 9 doing is great, that they're great, and they're 10 enjoying themselves, and all is fine with the 11 world; their coaches, very specialized folks; 12 the athletic establishments; the forces in 13 place today because they were put there in 14 place today by the system, the system, not evil 15 people, by the system that needs to be 16 addressed. That makes it very hard to fix the 17 problem, very hard to fix the problem. 18 Last comments, what to do at 19 these schools. I have these suggestions. 20 First, I am absolutely convinced that tinkering 21 around the edges, little changes, incremental I 22 think Jim called it, will do nothing except 23 give people a misplaced sense of 24 accomplishment. They will not -- they have not 25 accomplished anything. Look at -- look at the ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 40 1 drift over the last 15 or 20 years. No, no, 2 no. Tinkering is not the answer. 3 We need a holistic 4 reconceptualization of the whole enterprise of 5 sports at these schools so that they will be 6 aligned, Myles, with the educational values of 7 these institutions. And everything will 8 follow, needs to follow from that. 9 The intensity of the athletic 10 experience at these places definitely needs to 11 be reduced. And the management council 12 proposals that Myles mentioned that are going 13 to be voted on in January are certainly 14 intended to do that. And I agree. I applaud 15 this initiative and hope very much that it is 16 successful. 17 But third, that isn't enough. 18 I think the single most important thing we 19 could do at these institutions, one thing if we 20 could do it is to go back to the notion of 21 representativeness. If you read, as I have, 22 the founding documents of many of these 23 conferences, non big-time conferences, what do 24 they say? They say athletes will be 25 representative of their classes. They will be ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 41 1 drawn from the urn, as it were, of the rest of 2 the students. 3 Now, that means to me that 80 4 percent of them are in the bottom third of the 5 class. They aren't bunched in a certain set of 6 majors; they're distributed across fields of 7 study. They do other things besides play 8 sports. They're involved much more with campus 9 life and with their classmates than they are 10 today. And many more of them are walk-ons, a 11 dying breed because of the emphasis on 12 recruitment. 13 So what I would do would be to 14 try to get schools to sign on to the principle 15 of representativeness and then put the burden 16 on the admissions offices not to just follow 17 the coach's list, to look for the student who 18 really wants to come for the educational values 19 that the school offers. Put the burden on the 20 athletic department and the deans to create a 21 culture and a set of relationships that will 22 allow the student who comes for the right 23 reasons to succeed, to get out of the place 24 what the student ought to get out of the place; 25 and then finally to put the responsibility on ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 42 1 the presidents and the trustees to make sure 2 that outcomes are measured, that 3 representativeness is tested, and that there 4 are rewards and penalties for how one does on 5 the representativeness scale. 6 Final comment, I'm often 7 challenged when I make suggestions like this by 8 people who say, "But won't skill levels be 9 reduced in these programs?" Yes, they will. 10 Absolutely they will, of course they will. But 11 does that mean that the real values of college 12 sports, the teaching, the character, the 13 leadership, the drive, the resilience, all 14 those things that we talk about probably 15 because they're there, will be lost? No, I 16 don't think so at all. In fact, I think that 17 they will really be strengthened and that the 18 lessons that sports can teach will be learned 19 much better by people who are representative. 20 George Schultz called me not 21 long ago. He's an old personal friend, though 22 we disagree about lots of things, is an old 23 personal friend. And he was very pleased with 24 the book, thought the book was terrific. And 25 he said, "You know, when I played football at ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 43 1 Princeton," as he did in the Forties, he said 2 "I learned so much. It was a great learning 3 experience." He said, "It was 11 men against 4 11 men. And each of us did everything. We 5 called the plays. We substituted. We played 6 offense and defense. We did all this, 11 men 7 against 11 men." He said, "Today, no." He 8 said, "It's an organization against an 9 organization." 10 And I would submit that the 11 learning skills that grow out of the enterprise 12 are affected by that difference. 13 Thank you. 14 (Applause.) 15 MR. MCMILLEN: Thank you very 16 much. 17 And now we'll take some 18 questions. If anybody has a question, we ask 19 you to go to the mike. 20 I will make one quick comment 21 in reference to Dr. Cowen's comment about a 22 czar. And I've often concurred. In 1991 I had 23 submitted legislation to Congress that would 24 have created a czar in the NCAA because it's so 25 difficult, Dr. Brand's job with the ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 44 1 fractionalization of conferences and all the 2 diffusion of power to really grab this issue 3 and to lead the reform charge. It's almost 4 analogous to Nikita Khrushchev in the Sixties, 5 you know, unilaterally disarming his missiles 6 even though the threat of the U.S. would still 7 be there. And so, this is a very, very 8 difficult job. And Dr. Brand, we appreciate 9 your leadership on these matters. 10 Does -- Do we have some 11 questions for the panelists? 12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) 13 MR. MCMILLEN: Could you stand 14 up so everybody can hear the question, please. 15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have an 16 observation and a question. The observation is 17 obviously the speakers we have heard today are 18 of a similar mind, a similar outlook on college 19 athletics. I've heard those speakers differ 20 dramatically in that regard. 21 And secondly, the question is: 22 What percentage of college presidents, I-A, do 23 you represent? How many other -- What 24 percentage of college presidents feel the same 25 way as you do on this matter? Are you in the ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 45 1 gross minority? Are you roughly half and half? 2 What's the lay of the land? 3 MR. COWEN: Hank, there's been 4 no formal survey, to answer that question. So 5 all I can share with you is what I consider is 6 anecdotal evidence. And I could say in the 7 circles of universities that I roam, when you 8 talk to presidents privately and even a session 9 like this I think there's a general concern 10 overall about the state of intercollegiate 11 athletics, especially at the Division I-A 12 level. Bill can talk, I think, to Division 13 III. 14 It is not good for higher 15 education when we have the scandals that we 16 have had and we have had what we see as this 17 dramatic increase in the commercialization of 18 intercollegiate athletics and the impact that 19 has on our institutions. So I think overall 20 you would find a feeling of concern yet support 21 that intercollegiate athletics plays a very 22 important role in our institutions. So you'll 23 see no one who will say let's get rid of it; I 24 think it's a question of can we possibly rein 25 it back in from where it is right now to some ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 46 1 other place. 2 MR. DUDERSTADT: Let me respond 3 to that as well. I think again, most 4 presidents care very deeply about the 5 educational mission of their institution and 6 are very concerned about the direction that 7 college sports is headed. But on the other 8 hand, the contemporary college president has a 9 lot of issues that they've got to deal with. 10 There are many ditches they can choose to die 11 in. Usually college sports is not the one that 12 they're going to choose. 13 And so, all too often they tend 14 to treat it with benign neglect. And what that 15 means, therefore, is that it increasingly 16 becomes independent of the institution, it's 17 driven by the business model that's promoted by 18 athletic directors, conference commissioners, 19 celebrity coaches without the kind of oversight 20 and control that institutions should be giving. 21 I think the most damning thing, 22 the most harmful thing in college sports today 23 is our pretention that somehow it's independent 24 of the university, independent in its finances, 25 in its government, and so forth. And that's ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 47 1 what worries me actually about the concept of 2 an NCAA czar, because indeed that's a czar 3 that's only over a part of the institution. 4 And I think you need accountability on the 5 educational side of the institution. That's 6 where the real concerns are, and that's where 7 the power and accountability should be. 8 MR. BOWEN: At the 9 nonscholarship schools, I can speak only about 10 the groups that have been in the studies that 11 we have done, but I think there's no question 12 but that within those schools there is 13 widespread concern that there are real issues 14 that there's been drift that only now is really 15 understood fully. And there are steps -- The 16 best evidence in support of that assertion is 17 that reform efforts are beginning at the 18 conference levels. I could point to any number 19 of specific steps that have been taken to 20 change some of the directions that I have 21 noted. 22 At the same time there is a 23 powerful sense that we can't go it alone, that 24 the only way we're really going to get anywhere 25 is if there is some real effort at the national ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 48 1 level, at the national level to change the 2 boundaries within which we compete. 3 MR. MCMILLEN: I have a 4 question for the panelists. You know, when 5 Lenny Elmore and I played at Maryland we didn't 6 have Sunday games and we didn't have to travel 7 quite so far for conferences. How in the world 8 if you really want to be a good student today 9 can you possibly do it with the demands of 10 being a college athlete? 11 MR. DUDERSTADT: You can't. 12 And I think that's one of the difficulties. So 13 many of our student athletes come from 14 educationally challenged backgrounds anyway. 15 They come, however, to our campuses with the 16 same academic objectives as any other students. 17 They want to become doctors and lawyers. Very 18 few of them believe they have the talent to 19 become professional athletes. But once they 20 enter the first class and they realize the 21 competition they're up against and then go back 22 and realize that they're going to have to spend 23 20, 30, 40 hours a week year-round if they're 24 to be successful as an athlete to meet their 25 obligations there, they give up and they ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 49 1 withdraw. And I think that as much as anything 2 else is responsible for the very high dropout 3 rate on the part of student athletes. We don't 4 give them the chance to succeed. 5 MR. COWEN: Tom, I agree 6 wholeheartedly with Jim. To be a student 7 athlete today is very intrusive on your life, 8 it is a 12-month activity, not just in season. 9 And there's virtually no time for these young 10 men and women to pursue other activities in our 11 universities, much less in the communities. 12 And that's one of the things as I was 13 suggesting is, is -- I think one response is, 14 well, why don't we give them a living wage and 15 reward them with more money because of this. 16 And of course, I think we should be going in 17 the other direction and giving them more of 18 their time back so they could become more 19 effectively integrated students within our 20 universities. 21 MR. MCMILLEN: Any questions? 22 Do we have somebody? 23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) 24 MR. MCMILLEN: Go ahead. 25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know, ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 50 1 there's a hundred thousand people or so to go 2 to these college football games. What are you 3 going to do about them? They're the ones 4 ratcheting up the intensity and the passion for 5 all this, you know, 110,000 at Tennessee. How 6 are you going to -- Well, how are you going to 7 deal with those people? They're the ones 8 pushing this thing. 9 MR. DUDERSTADT: Let me 10 respond. We have 111,000 at Michigan, of 11 course. Of course, if the Detroit Lions would 12 ever have a winning record, they might erode 13 that. 14 I spent a lot of time as a 15 college president talking to a lot of those 16 folks out there and particularly a lot of 17 alumni. And, you know, it's this sense that 18 Bill Bowen put out of the -- of the past and 19 the present. I mean, they long nostalgically 20 for the days when a young man could go out for 21 a football team while bussing tables 20 hours a 22 week, become its captain, go on and become 23 President of the United States, the Jerry Ford 24 model. And it's only when you push them that 25 they realize that what they're seeing on the ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 51 1 field right now is much closer to professional 2 athletics than any kind of that representative 3 sport. 4 My sense is that most of those 5 folks have -- are not that impressed by the 6 unusual quality, the level of skill that 7 they're seeing on the field. They really don't 8 get into it at that level. What they like is 9 the competitiveness. And they could watch 10 Army-Navy and be perfectly happy rather than 11 watch Oklahoma-Florida State. You know, it's 12 not the skill level; it's the evenness of the 13 competition and the belief that the people on 14 the field have some relationship to the host 15 institution. I don't think that that's -- 16 MR. MCMILLEN: You know, the 17 fact is that a hundred thousand fans go to a 18 game has nothing -- does not mean that you 19 can't have academic values. I hope the pot of 20 money gets so big but it promotes academic 21 values. I don't think those are mutually 22 contradictory to have a hundred thousand people 23 cheering in the fans and to have a strong 24 academic model in college sports. They can -- 25 they can co-exist. ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 52 1 MR. COWEN: You know, two 2 thoughts. One is over the last several months 3 in my own involvement on athletic issues, one 4 of the things I've heard over and over again 5 is, "Well, we can't do this because this is not 6 what the networks want. This is not what the 7 Bowls want." And I've asked over and over 8 again, well, who controls this? We are the 9 universities, without us. And we've gotten 10 into this model now that somehow we are 11 following what the Bowls and the networks tell 12 us what we have to do to maximize value. And 13 to me that's upside down from where we should 14 be. 15 The other idea is maybe we 16 should do revenue-sharing in football based on 17 the academic progress and graduation rates of 18 our students rather than the success on the 19 field. And that might be a novel way to change 20 the way we think about revenue and might get us 21 into a different mode of how we operate our 22 programs. 23 MR. MCMILLEN: I still have 24 another question. 25 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 53 1 MR. MCMILLEN: Go ahead; I'm 2 sorry. 3 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, I just 4 have to make an observation that the real 5 problem it seems to me is that you have such 6 enormous commercial incentives. And you're 7 never going to get schools unilaterally to 8 abandon the pursuit of those incentives unless 9 you can somehow reduce them. And I applaud the 10 academic reform efforts. But as long as there 11 are hundreds of millions of dollars on the 12 table, academic reform efforts are just going 13 to deepen the hypocrisy in the system and cause 14 the problems to go underground more. But 15 people are still going to pursue those hundreds 16 of millions. 17 And to me the fundamental way 18 to do this is to adopt rules that say you can't 19 play any games except on the weekends, nobody 20 can be on TV more than once a year, these kinds 21 of things. But you can't do that because of 22 what I regard as the darkest day in the history 23 of college sports was when the Supreme Court 24 said that we can't get together and regulate 25 the sport on the commercial side. ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 54 1 So I would recommend that the 2 NCAA give serious thought to getting behind a 3 strong effort to get the antitrust laws 4 reformed and maybe ask Mr. McMillen whether or 5 not that is something that's politically 6 viable. 7 MR. MCMILLEN: Actually, that 8 was the legislation that -- that was the 9 legislation I'd submitted in 1991. 10 The most interesting document I 11 commend you to read is Justice White, "Minority 12 Dissent Report" in that 1984 Supreme Court 13 decision. He predicted everything that's 14 happening in college sports today. And he said 15 that the fractionalization of money would lead 16 to an arms race and that you need an 17 all-powerful NCAA controlled by the presidents 18 supporting academic values. 19 And so, I don't think that the 20 fact that you can't have it, you can have a big 21 pot of money; it just has to go towards the 22 right things. And I think I would all -- I 23 would all urge you to go back and look at that 24 minority report. It was quite interesting for 25 its foresight. ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 55 1 Anybody else want to comment on 2 that? 3 MR. DUDERSTADT: Yeah. Let 4 me -- let me comment. Universities have this 5 terrible tendency to be penny wise and pound 6 foolish. And in the scheme of things, 7 intercollegiate athletics is small potatoes. I 8 can remember when Bo Schembechler come in -- 9 came in to me one time and said, "You know the 10 pressure on me to keep Michigan Stadium filled? 11 If we lost ten percent of those seats, you know 12 what that would mean?" 13 And I said, "Bo, if we lost ten 14 percent of the beds in our hospital, multiply 15 any number you can come up with by a hundred, 16 that's what I worry about." 17 You know, this is a playpen all 18 too frequently for university presidents and 19 trustees but is a very small part financially 20 of the enterprise. And at best it's break 21 even. And in fact, I would contend that in 22 almost all cases it's losing because we don't 23 include capital costs and stuff like that. 24 So we're deceiving ourselves. 25 It's a myth. I think the real commercial ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 56 1 driving force is the grossly overcompensation 2 of celebrity coaches and propagating down now 3 to others in the athletic enterprise. But to 4 the institution itself, it's not big dollars, 5 you know. You worry much more about hospitals, 6 about state appropriations, about private 7 fund-raising than anything that your athletic 8 complex is likely to bring in. 9 MR. MCMILLEN: Questions? 10 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) 11 MR. MCMILLEN: Yes. 12 AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm going to 13 cheat. I actually have two questions, and one 14 is really for James Duderstadt about what you 15 suggested about marquee sports, particularly 16 football and basketball. And to the extent 17 that I understand it, Division I football and 18 basketball have essentially become the minor 19 leagues. And if someone could explain to me 20 what -- apart from the cultural things attached 21 to it, what the colossal resistance to your 22 suggestion is because I don't think any of us 23 took you seriously really in envisioning a 24 world where we just do away with that, that why 25 the idea that professional football and ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 57 1 professional basketball should have their own 2 minor leagues and not essentially have colleges 3 do that for them. 4 And I have no problems with 5 professional sports. I really like them. But 6 I don't quite understand, as I said, apart from 7 the cultural things that we can talk about all 8 day, what the resistance to your suggestion is, 9 get rid of those -- you know, that huge marquee 10 thing. 11 The second question I have is a 12 much bigger one. And any -- I'd like anyone to 13 comment on race and race distortion as the 14 elephant in the room in terms of, you know, the 15 ways in which this sort of exploits students 16 and, you know, what's the -- all the ways we've 17 moved toward that professional model. 18 MR. DUDERSTADT: Well, the 19 first comment I -- The reason I made that 20 comment is that those of us that come from 21 climates much different than this have 22 something called college hockey, mostly 23 populated by Canadians coming from north of the 24 border who want education in our institutions. 25 But that does have a very ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 58 1 strongly developed developmental league process 2 as a route for those students, for those 3 athletes that really are not interested in a 4 college education to go on and try themselves 5 out for professional careers. NBA has a 6 developmental league. The NFL, that would be 7 incredibly expensive. But the point is that 8 right now universities unfortunately are forced 9 to serve as farm teams all too oftenly for some 10 of the professional sports. And as a result, 11 they attract a lot of kids that really are not 12 interested in an education, but they see this 13 as the only route they have. 14 And my suggestion, and many 15 other people have made it, and some of the 16 professional leagues are moving toward it, is 17 to provide another route in professional 18 sports. 19 Race is a very serious issue. 20 You know, as one of the named defendants in the 21 Supreme Court case Bill Bowen and some of his 22 colleagues helped us defend last June, I'm 23 particularly sensitive to it. I think it needs 24 to be addressed forthrightly. But I also would 25 suggest that the real issue of diversity on our ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 59 1 campus is not driven by college sports; it's 2 driven by what we do in the rest of the 3 enterprise. And that's where we're 4 underachieving in an extraordinary way. 5 MR. MCMILLEN: Bill? 6 MR. BOWEN: On the race 7 question which is very important, I think it is 8 scandalous, scandalous for colleges and 9 universities, as some do sometimes, to pass off 10 their own obligations to promote aggressively 11 diversity for all the reasons that Justice 12 O'Connor identified, and I think many of us 13 would agree are so important, to wrap that 14 under the guise of college sports and college 15 sports recruitment. 16 You know, if you want to have a 17 diverse student body and are willing to invest 18 in having a diverse student body, that's 19 something that ought to be done for its own 20 reasons, on its own terms entirely apart from 21 the athletics enterprise. That's point one. 22 Point two is a signaling point. 23 One thing we've not said this afternoon is one 24 of the most pernicious consequences of all of 25 this stuff that we're talking about -- at the ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 60 1 Division III level, let me say, every bit as 2 much as at the Division I level -- is the 3 signals that get sent down to parents, to 4 secondary schools, to kids as to what is the 5 path up. 6 And I tell you a quick story 7 that really illustrates it. My wife and I 8 spend time in Southern New Jersey, and we know 9 a waitress there quite well by now. The 10 waitress has a daughter. And we asked the 11 waitress how her daughter is doing. And she 12 said, "Oh, great." She said, "We just learned 13 that she can really run. Run, run, run. And 14 so, her coach has told us that she's got to 15 spend a lot more time running, running, 16 running. She can run right into college. And 17 so, we've said all this time and effort and 18 money we've been spending on extra chemistry 19 and math, that stuff's all got to go. No, no 20 room for that. Run, run, run." 21 Now, that I think is truly 22 terrible. And the colleges and universities, 23 all of them ought to be sending different kinds 24 of signals to students of every race and 25 background. Do the math. Do the chemistry. ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 61 1 Run for fun but don't run to get into college. 2 (Applause.) 3 MR. MCMILLEN: I have a quick 4 question for the -- This is more of a 5 theoretical question. But if a coach can come 6 in with his lawyer and negotiate millions of 7 dollars to contract and a player who's great 8 can leave at any time and go in the NBA and 9 command millions of dollars in salary, why 10 shouldn't that player have a right in the 11 college to bargain for his services as well? 12 MR. BOWEN: Myles wants to 13 answer that question. 14 MR. MCMILLEN: I'm not arguing 15 for it; I'm asking the riddle. 16 MR. DUDERSTADT: Well, of 17 course, I think it's only because of great 18 stupidity that universities allow their coaches 19 to do that. We have other students -- I'm not 20 suggesting that universities kind of collude 21 among themselves to get this under control, but 22 my suspicion is that there are hundreds if not 23 thousands of equally talented people out there 24 that would work for one-tenth of the cost that 25 some of our celebrity coaches demand right now. ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 62 1 And I think we kind of force ourself in the 2 marketplace. 3 It is the case that many of our 4 graduates command extraordinary compensation in 5 the outside world. Much of that is because of 6 their affiliation with our institutions. But 7 while they're in our institutions they are 8 students. And the value added we provide is an 9 education. 10 MR. MCMILLEN: Bill? 11 MR. BOWEN: I think lurking 12 beneath much of this discussion is a deep 13 conversation that needs to occur about 14 cooperation, competition, collusion, 15 collaboration, and what makes sense in an 16 education world in these territories. In my 17 view, some pieces of the government have been 18 extremely destructive in the way they've 19 thought about that. And today I find that many 20 general counsels are so cautious and so worried 21 about everything that they won't permit or 22 allow the most, I would have thought, benign 23 forms of collaboration, cooperation to occur, 24 to advance educational values, to save money, 25 to rein in this, to rein in that. And there is ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 63 1 a great research project out there, great 2 research project out there for some very smart 3 industrial organization economist-cum-lawyer to 4 think through carefully areas in which 5 competition really does promote our values and 6 areas in which it needs to be tempered or in 7 which it does not. And I have tried for four 8 years to find the right person to do that study 9 for which we would pay. And so far I haven't 10 found the right person. 11 MR. MCMILLEN: Any other 12 questions? 13 AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Indicating.) 14 MR. MCMILLEN: Yes, sir. 15 AUDIENCE MEMBER: One force for 16 change that I have not heard serious discussion 17 about is the alumni of the universities who I 18 think are very important in assisting change 19 along the lines of your discussion. I point to 20 Tulane University which recently went through a 21 process of deciding whether to go from Division 22 I to down the ranks and I believe met with a 23 significant response from the alumni. And 24 Dr. Cowen will have to comment on that. That 25 was a driving force in keeping the university ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 64 1 in Division I. 2 So I think that in my own view 3 if there is any serious change to come about in 4 the future it has to start with reeducating the 5 alumni in terms of these important issues. And 6 that's a group that cannot be overlooked. 7 MR. COWEN: Yeah, I would like 8 to comment and especially underscore the last 9 part of your comment. I think one of the 10 things that universities have not done a good 11 job at, and certainly Tulane University would 12 fall into that category, is really educating 13 our alumni about athletics, not just about what 14 it costs and what value there is, but all the 15 issues we're talking about today so that when 16 we do face these decisions there's no context 17 in which the alumni can really evaluate what 18 we're thinking about. And that's our failure; 19 that's not the alumni, not the failure of the 20 alumni. 21 So one of the reasons that 22 motivate this particular symposium, quite 23 honestly, was that review last year and saying 24 here's a golden opportunity to begin to educate 25 not just our alumni but people in general about ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 65 1 the issues that we're facing every day out 2 there so they have a greater and deeper 3 understanding of the choices we have and why we 4 make certain decisions or not. 5 So I wholeheartedly agree with 6 you. And that is the fault of universities. I 7 know we learned that lesson last year, and 8 we're going to make sure that we continue to 9 educate our alumni about these issues and to be 10 very transparent with them in reporting both 11 the costs and the values of athletics so they 12 have a larger context by which to view it. 13 MR. BOWEN: There is also a 14 huge problem of knowing the facts. In the 15 first book that we did, The Game of Life book 16 we did a major survey of graduates of these 17 schools out a numbers of years and all of the 18 rest, alumni. And more of them wanted less 19 emphasis placed on athletes than wanted more 20 emphasis placed on athletics, contrary again to 21 what people just sort of assume because they 22 hear loud voices. And they think the loud 23 voice is every voice; whereas there's this 24 quiet person sitting someplace giving money to 25 the university who really relates more to the ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 66 1 educational values of the institution than to 2 many, many of these things. And we just simply 3 don't know that. So I wouldn't underestimate 4 the good sense that resides in lots of folks 5 who may not be the noisiest contributors to the 6 discussion. 7 One footnote, if you break down 8 the data as we did in the book by donors, by 9 donor status, the more the donors give the more 10 inclined they were to think that we're putting 11 too much emphasis on athletics. 12 MR. MCMILLEN: Dr. Cowen, in 13 your remarks you mentioned that there might -- 14 we need to have improved governance from our 15 body of trustees with this respect. In the 16 corporate world, you know, Congress passed 17 Sarbanes-Oxley to increase accountability of 18 directors. What kind of accountability should 19 be required of trustees at universities that 20 get any kind of federal funding? 21 MR. COWEN: Yeah, I hope it 22 would not be Sarbanes-Oxley. 23 MR. MCMILLEN: Right. 24 MR. COWEN: I'm dealing with 25 that in another world, so I hope it would not ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 67 1 be that. 2 What I think, Tom, would be 3 better, rather than legislation or -- would be 4 to establish a culture of accountability at the 5 trustee level to understand that athletics is 6 something that should be looked at as all units 7 of the institution. 8 MR. MCMILLEN: Sure. 9 MR. COWEN: I don't think we 10 should single out, by the way, athletics. I 11 think there should be a culture within our 12 boards that periodically they do high-level 13 reviews of all aspects of the institution. 14 Just don't exclude athletics and apply the same 15 criteria and good sense there that they would 16 anyplace else. 17 A lot of times in our 18 institutions, though, athletics, there's a 19 sacred cow. And nobody wants to touch it. Yet 20 I think that is to the detriment of our 21 institutions. 22 MR. MCMILLEN: Does anybody 23 else have any other questions, because we are 24 coming to the end, 2:45, of our Panel I. Does 25 anybody have any final word, final questions? ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 68 1 Any of the panelists have any final word? 2 MR. DUDERSTADT: Well, the only 3 comment I would make is once again to commend 4 Myles Brand on, you know, this collegiate model 5 that he has put out is the way to define the 6 vision for what college sports really should 7 be. I worry enormously, without that vision in 8 place incrementalism, small steps will just 9 take us down the same road we've been on for a 10 century. So I commend Myles and his leadership 11 and the NCAA for trying to begin to put that 12 new vision together. I think that's critically 13 important. 14 MR. MCMILLEN: Thank you very 15 much. Thank you for the panelists. 16 I believe we have a 15-minute 17 break, and then we start at three o'clock. 18 (Whereupon the first panel 19 discussion was adjourned.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 69 1 R E P O R T E R'S C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, the undersigned reporter, do hereby 4 certify that the above and foregoing is a true 5 and correct transcription of the shorthand 6 (Stenograph) notes of the proceedings herein, 7 taken down by me at the time and place 8 hereinabove stated and thereafter transcribed 9 under my supervision to the best of my ability 10 and understanding. 11 12 13 14 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, RPR, CCR 15 a/k/a CAROLYN SUE RUMSFELD 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R. 70 1 R E P O R T E R'S P A G E 2 3 I, Susie Taylor Rumsfeld, Certified Court 4 Reporter in and for the State of Louisiana, the 5 officer, as defined in Rule 28 of the Federal 6 Rules of Civil Procedure and/or Article 1434(b) 7 of the Louisiana Code of Civil Procedure, 8 before whom this testimony was taken, do hereby 9 state on the Record: 10 That due to the interaction in 11 the spontaneous discourse of this proceeding, 12 dashes (--) have been used to indicate pauses, 13 changes in thought, and/or talkovers; that same 14 is the proper method for a Court Reporter's 15 transcription of proceeding, and that the 16 dashes (--) do not indicate that words or 17 phrases have been left out of this transcript; 18 that any words and/or names which could not be 19 verified through reference material have been 20 denoted with the phrase "spelled phonetically." 21 22 23 24 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, RPR, CCR 25 a/k/a CAROLYN SUE RUMSFELD ALLIANCE REPORTING, INC. - (504) 488-6624 SUSIE TAYLOR RUMSFELD, R.P.R., C.C.R.