NATIONAL SYMPOSIUM 

                                   ON

                            ATHLETICS REFORM





                   HELD AT THE HOTEL INTERCONTINENTAL

                         NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA  



                     PRESENTED BY TULANE UNIVERSITY



                            NOVEMBER 11, 2003





                         SECOND PANEL DISCUSSION:



                    "POSTSEASON FOOTBALL PLAY AND THE

               BOWL CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES:  A CONVERSATION"







           PROCEEDINGS REPORTED BY:

                SIMONE R. BERTUCCI,

                CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER








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       1   MODERATOR:

       2        LEN ELMORE
                Attorney
       3        ESPN Sports Analyst
                Former NBA Player and Writer
       4
           PANELISTS:
       5
                BRITTON BANOWSKY
       6        Commissioner, Conference USA

       7        PETER DALIS
                Consultant and Former Athletics Director, UCLA
       8
                CRAIG THOMPSON
       9        Commissioner,
                The Mountain West Conference
      10
                TODD TURNER
      11        Former Athletics Director, 
                Vanderbilt University
      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25




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       1

       2                        I N D E X

       3

       4   Opening Remarks:

       5        LEN ELMORE...........................   4

       6

       7   Address by Panelists:

       8        PETER DALIS.......................... 10

       9        BRITTON BANOWSKY..................... 17

      10        CRAIG THOMPSON....................... 25

      11        TODD TURNER.......................... 34

      12

      13   Question and Answer Session............... 46

      14

      15   Comments by Panelists..................... 58

      16

      17   Closing Remarks

      18        SCOTT S. COWEN....................... 64

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25




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       1             MR. ELMORE:

       2                  First of all, thanks to all of you 

       3     for sticking around after the last panel.  It's 

       4     almost kind of anticlimactic in some respects to 

       5     follow the brain trusts of universities across 

       6     the nation. 

       7                  The title of our panel is 

       8     "Postseason Football Play and the Bowl 

       9     Championship Series:  A Conversation," but just 

      10     to caution you, we're not going to stick solely 

      11     on the Bowl Championship Series controversy, 

      12     simply because there is so much more to talk 

      13     about, but certainly this will be a prime subject 

      14     of conversation. 

      15                  Before we get started, I pretty 

      16     much want to let you know that the format will be 

      17     just about the same as the first one.  We'll 

      18     introduce our panelists, they'll have an 

      19     opportunity to address you, and then certainly 

      20     we'll take questions and maybe ask questions 

      21     among ourselves.  But, first, let me weigh in a 

      22     little bit, particularly about the postseason 

      23     football play and the Bowl Championship Series, 

      24     kind of a little change of pace from what we did 

      25     in the first panel.  




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       1                  You talk about the words integrity, 

       2     credibility, accountability, fairness.  These are 

       3     the watchwords the clarion calls for the most 

       4     recent period of reform in intercollegiate 

       5     athletics.  Invariably among reform targets are 

       6     the major sports, those inextricably welded to 

       7     revenue opportunities.  Regardless of the 

       8     endeavor, there's good and there's bad associated 

       9     with the pursuit of the almighty dollar, as we 

      10     all know.  Even more importantly, or maybe more 

      11     philosophically, in the pursuit of the dollar, 

      12     the debate over how much is enough is what 

      13     reigns.  These observations and the inevitable 

      14     questions associated with today's reform process 

      15     become ever more puzzling in light of the 

      16     following: 

      17                  In 1996 in response to a different 

      18     round of scandal, the NCAA governing structure 

      19     was altered to strip individual athletic 

      20     departments of their apparent autonomy.  In the 

      21     spirit of reform, that system was replaced with a 

      22     system that featured university presidents in 

      23     control.  They were to provide a more reasoned 

      24     oversight towards maintaining the balance between 

      25     athletics and overall institutional goals, and 




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       1     the majority of chief executives governed this 

       2     area with a focus on balance and with 

       3     perspective.  Along with the new NCAA management 

       4     regime now led by Doctor Brand, most university 

       5     presidents continue to reconcile the foremost job 

       6     of educating students and developing leaders with 

       7     its complementary and subordinate yet all too 

       8     independent relationship with athletics.  

       9                  To accept the challenge of change, 

      10     we must accept reality and proceed from there.  

      11     The effort to maximize the economic opportunities 

      12     developed because of revenue-generating sports 

      13     has led us to where we are today.  I believe that 

      14     it's ludicrous that anyone would believe that an 

      15     institution or group of institutions would walk 

      16     away from millions of TV dollars presented by a 

      17     particular alignment.  The NCAA-CBS arrangement 

      18     in college basketball has meant millions and even 

      19     a billion dollars divided among Division I 

      20     participants in basketball.  And it is equally 

      21     ludicrous to believe that TV network and college 

      22     sports arrangements have to be exclusionary in 

      23     its operation among Division IA football 

      24     programs, as the current BCS arrangement appears 

      25     on its face.              




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       1                  Again, the NCAA basketball 

       2     tournament, while working out its quirks, will 

       3     and still affords every player, every team, every 

       4     school, a chance to dream of winning a national 

       5     championship.  On the first day of practice, they 

       6     can all rely on the chance, regardless of how 

       7     minuscule, that they could win at all, and it's 

       8     this access that creates and perpetuates 

       9     universal interest.  This access is a major 

      10     ingredient that helps bind college and university 

      11     communities across our land.  

      12                  In the current BCS controversy we 

      13     have about 63 schools sharing in almost a half 

      14     billion dollars over the last five years, but 54 

      15     schools on the outside looking in are left to 

      16     divide approximately 16 million dollars.  The 

      17     student athletes from these schools and their 

      18     institutions all endure the same rigors and make 

      19     the same sacrifices, yet for the student athletes 

      20     of the "have-nots," there is no dream because 

      21     there is no access.  

      22                  It's about balance.  It's about the 

      23     proper apportioning of priorities within 

      24     institutions and among their goals, but certainly 

      25     it's about the money, and it's also about how 




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       1     much and to whom.  It's about fairness, it's 

       2     about credibility, and it's about integrity.  

       3     There are those who aver and say this controversy 

       4     is about tradition.  I don't disagree, but the 

       5     issues also concern accountability, and 

       6     accountability in defining and then carrying out 

       7     what college sports should truly be about.  

       8                  So the issues remain myriad, the 

       9     negotiations at times seem downright contentious.  

      10     Fortunately, as this symposium demonstrates, the 

      11     discourse continues towards resolution.  So, with 

      12     that, we're honored to have some of the brightest 

      13     minds in the administration of intercollegiate 

      14     athletics here with us to discuss the swirling 

      15     issues surrounding college football, postseason 

      16     play, the Bowl Championship Series alignment, 

      17     and, of course, athletic reform.  

      18                  So starting at my far right, 

      19     jointing us today is Peter Dalis.  Peter is a 

      20     consultant.  He retired as athletic director of 

      21     UCLA in 2002.  He served in the position for 19 

      22     years and spent 47 years on the UCLA campus as a 

      23     student and administrator.  While athletics 

      24     director, he chaired many committees in the 

      25     Pac-10 Conference, predominantly in the 




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       1     television area.  

       2                  To my near right is Britton 

       3     Banowsky, who was named commissioner of 

       4     Conference USA in 2002 and has more than 15 

       5     years' experience as a collegiate conference 

       6     administrator.  He came to Conference USA from 

       7     the Big 12 Conference where he was associate 

       8     commissioner.  Previously he was commissioner of 

       9     the Southland Conference.  Britton has served on 

      10     several national committees, including the NCAA 

      11     Special Committee to Review Marketing and 

      12     Licensing Activities, and the NCAA Division I 

      13     Management Council.  He's secretary-treasurer of 

      14     the Collegiate Commissioners Association.  

      15                  On my near left is Craig Thompson 

      16     who joined the Mountain West Conference as 

      17     commissioner in 1998.  Previously Craig served as 

      18     commissioner of the Sun Belt Conference for 

      19     almost 12 years and served as the only 

      20     commissioner of the American South Conference 

      21     prior to the merger of the two leagues in 1991.  

      22     He is active on the national level, serving on 

      23     the NCAA Men's Basketball Issues Committee, and 

      24     he was chair of the Division I Men's Basketball 

      25     Committee.  He works extensively also with the 




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       1     National Association of Collegiate Directors of 

       2     Athletics.

       3                  And to my far left is Todd Turner, a 

       4     27-year veteran of NCAA Division I 

       5     intercollegiate athletics.  He's a former 

       6     athletics director at Vanderbilt, and previously 

       7     he was athletics director at North Carolina State 

       8     University and University of Connecticut.  He 

       9     recently served on the NCAA Academics, 

      10     Eligibility, Compliance Cabinet, and that body's 

      11     subcommittee on recruiting.  Todd also is 

      12     involved in the NCAA's academic reform 

      13     initiatives and chairs the NCAA Management 

      14     Council's Working Group on Incentives and 

      15     Disincentives tied to academic performance.  

      16                  Again, in keeping with the format 

      17     that we had in the first panel discussion, we're 

      18     going to allow our panelists approximately ten 

      19     minutes to discuss whatever it is they would 

      20     like.  Peter, would you start?  

      21             MR. DALIS:

      22                  Thanks, Len. 

      23                  Having heard those three very 

      24     eminent people begin our panel this morning, I 

      25     was reminded of something that George Bernard 




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       1     Shaw said and wrote, and that is, "The danger in 

       2     communication is the illusion that it took 

       3     place."  Having been an athletic director at UCLA 

       4     for 19 years, and having worked with many of the 

       5     CEOs here and in the Pac-10 and the Big 10, I 

       6     really didn't hear of the kind of conversations 

       7     that were expressed up here today.  So athletic 

       8     directors went on to do the business that they 

       9     felt was important that the institution wanted 

      10     them to carry out, and in that process football 

      11     is a very large part of that.  

      12                  And I want to emphasize the one 

      13     thing I learned in the 19 years about football is 

      14     that it is somewhat of a geographic phenomena, 

      15     that you-all down here take it somewhat more 

      16     seriously than some of us out on the other 

      17     coasts, and it's very important to your 

      18     community, and it's a very important ingredient 

      19     for the culture that you prescribe to.  

      20                  But I want to focus just a little 

      21     bit on the postseason bowl play-off system and 

      22     the traditional bowl system because I've lived 

      23     under both.  What I call now -- not the BCS -- I 

      24     call it the decimal dilemma.  I believe it is 

      25     something that's not particularly healthy for 




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       1     intercollegiate athletics and sport and the value 

       2     that is inherent in sport.  

       3                  And I want to go back a little bit 

       4     by saying when I first came to UCLA in 1983, we 

       5     really had what was a traditional January 1 bowl 

       6     system, and people wanted to go to those bowl 

       7     games, and certain people went to those bowl 

       8     games because they had tie-ups, so forth.  And 

       9     then there was another tier of bowl games that 

      10     were reasonably healthy experiences for young 

      11     people who wanted to play in them; and, by the 

      12     way, they enjoyed it, they really did, and they 

      13     looked forward to going to bowl games.  

      14                  But as America's appetite for having 

      15     a national championship grew in the sport of 

      16     football, some people designed and divined 

      17     something to avoid a play-off.  I will tell you 

      18     right now that I am in the miniority among most 

      19     athletic directors.  I believe initially that we 

      20     should have a play-off.  I saw no inherent reason 

      21     why we couldn't, given all the championship 

      22     opportunities we have in all other sports in the 

      23     NCAA.  As a matter of record, I would tell you 

      24     that my experience -- and it's anecdotal and it's 

      25     at UCLA -- the least-impacted student athlete 




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       1     academically during the season was football than 

       2     any other sport I had to deal with, be it golf, 

       3     tennis, volleyball, basketball, because 

       4     traditionally teams left on a Friday if they were 

       5     going somewhere, they played on a Saturday, and 

       6     that was it.  And their bowl experience, when it 

       7     took place, typically happened after final exams, 

       8     at least in the quarter system schools where I 

       9     was a part of.  So the argument that it's 

      10     impactful academically, I'm not altogether sure 

      11     how real that is from my anecdotal, limited, 

      12     19-year experience.  And I think the play-off is 

      13     important because I think it's fair, and I think 

      14     it would resonate in America, because I think in 

      15     America that's such a major part of our culture. 

      16                  In addition to that, I was lucky 

      17     enough to be at a university that wanted to excel 

      18     at everything, and that included intercollegiate 

      19     athletics, and we were proud to have won more 

      20     national championships combined in all sports 

      21     over the years than anyone else had, and that 

      22     became part of why we existed at UCLA, and it was 

      23     an important part, and it was one that I heard 

      24     about quite a bit.  And the one thing that I find 

      25     very curious that we never really talk about 




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       1     enough in intercollegiate athletics when we try 

       2     to effect change, if we want to, is that we don't 

       3     talk enough about our external community.  

       4                  Our internal community is loud, it 

       5     tells us what its mission is,  academia and so 

       6     forth; but our external community plays a major 

       7     role in how the rest of the university operates, 

       8     and that external community often wants to be a 

       9     champion.  If it's not a champion, it wants the 

      10     opportunity to be a champion.  It's important for 

      11     their ethos, it's important for their collective 

      12     ego.  There are a number of reasons why they want 

      13     to do it.  Having said that, I think a play-off 

      14     would be the most natural way to accomplish that. 

      15                  Now, something happened last year 

      16     in the Los Angeles area.  The L.A. Times wrote an 

      17     editorial regarding the Rose Bowl, and I may say 

      18     the L.A. Times editorial staff never weighs in on 

      19     anything athletic, but it did in this occasion 

      20     last December.  It decried the fact that they no 

      21     longer had the Pac-10 - Big 10 matchup, which is 

      22     important to our community and our side of the 

      23     country as well as, I think, the middle part of 

      24     the country.  That was the result of, of course, 

      25     the abandonment of the old traditional bowl 




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       1     system now trying to join another system to try 

       2     to accommodate a championship.  

       3                  Some of us came up with an idea 

       4     several years ago -- in fact, Chuck Young who was 

       5     the former chancellor at UCLA and now the interim 

       6     president at the University of Florida -- where 

       7     we could accomplish, we think, all those things.  

       8     By having a playoff system with eight teams -- 

       9     and I say eight teams guardedly because that 

      10     doesn't really answer all the questions that 

      11     people might have in the country if they're 

      12     interested in a playoff, but it would be a start, 

      13     and it would be similar to the NCAA basketball 

      14     tournament.  When I was at UCLA in my student 

      15     days, there were only 16 teams going to the NCAA 

      16     Championship, and that grew, and I think this 

      17     would have an opportunity to grow as well.  

      18                  I believe, as I said, it would 

      19     resonate in America.  I think it would be a 

      20     commercial success, and I don't think 

      21     commercialism in itself is as bad as everyone has 

      22     portrayed it to be.  I think it's an important 

      23     part of our culture and an important part of how 

      24     we exist in this country and, quite frankly, want 

      25     others to exist in the rest of the world.  




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       1                  But we thought that we would create 

       2     a system where you could accomplish having a 

       3     playoff, maintain the traditional January bowl 

       4     games with the old alignments that existed 

       5     before, but as important, with the additional 

       6     revenues -- and I know there would be additional 

       7     revenues, I've talked to the television networks 

       8     about this -- to have some of that money 

       9     subsidize some of the second tier bowl games that 

      10     don't get much public attention, but they should.  

      11     Because what's happened to the second tier bowl 

      12     games is, they basically exist on the backs of 

      13     institutions and conferences, that they no longer 

      14     have the community support, many of them, that 

      15     they historically had, and so when institutions 

      16     want opportunities to participate postseason, you 

      17     basically buy your way in to some degree, and 

      18     that is something I think is abhorrent for 

      19     institutions to have to do.  So I think we could 

      20     have a win on both sides of that. 

      21                  One of the things we studied while 

      22     we were looking at this was what is the academic 

      23     impact if you were to have playoff that went on 

      24     beyond traditional January 1, or January 4th in 

      25     this case, and how would it impact 




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       1     institutionally.  One of the things we looked at 

       2     was, during the first two weekends of January, 43 

       3     percent of the schools in all the conferences are 

       4     not in school.  So the first two weeks of January 

       5     are easily adaptable if one were to try to 

       6     attempt to have a football playoff system.  

       7                  So I raise these because these are 

       8     the issues that presidents and some other ADs and 

       9     conference commissioners raise from time to time 

      10     when this issue comes up.  But I think that if we 

      11     were to continue to have the kind of importance 

      12     that we place on sports, and admittedly I was an 

      13     athletic director, so it was a little bit more 

      14     important than a lot of other people, I think the 

      15     only way we should go is a playoff, that it's 

      16     eminently fair and in the best interest of the 

      17     sport in the long term.  Thank you. 

      18                  (Applause)

      19             MR. BANOWSKY:

      20                  Hello, I'm Britton Banowsky, 

      21     commissioner of Conference USA, and I do 

      22     appreciate the opportunity to be here.  I think 

      23     I'm here because Scott had a hard time getting 

      24     someone from a BCS conference to be here, and I 

      25     actually used to work in the Big 12, so I guess 




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       1     I'm as close as you're going to get today. 

       2                  What I'd like to do is -- and I 

       3     realize in doing so I'm probably going to forfeit 

       4     my honorarium and whatever bonus that I might 

       5     get.  I'm going to focus my remarks, at least my 

       6     preliminary remarks on athletics reform from the 

       7     perspective of an administrator.  I know we had a 

       8     lot of presidents that were weighing in earlier, 

       9     and I think there's some balance to the 

      10     conversation that might be helpful.  

      11                  I agree with most who have suggested 

      12     that athletics reform is not a destination.  To 

      13     me it's simply a discussion that helps us keep 

      14     some balance between the entertainment and 

      15     commercial values that are a big part of what we 

      16     do in college athletics, any inherent educational 

      17     values, and to me it's also about constantly 

      18     reminding ourselves to do what's right relative 

      19     to intercollegiate athletics. 

      20                  If I were grading the leadership of 

      21     college sports on the topics of reform, my grade 

      22     on the report card would go something like this, 

      23     and I'm including a grade relative to postseason 

      24     football.  In the area of academics reform, I 

      25     would give us an "A."  I think from my vantage 




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       1     point there's been a wonderful national broad 

       2     support for these ideas about putting the student 

       3     back into student athlete, as Scott suggested, 

       4     and I think that the standards that we enacted 

       5     which will operate to ensure that students who 

       6     are eligible are on track to graduate.  I mean, 

       7     from my perspective that's a big deal, and we 

       8     shouldn't lose sight of that.  That's something 

       9     that I have not seen before in my experience in 

      10     college athletics, and it should be wonderful to 

      11     see once it gets traction.  

      12                  I've also had the pleasure of 

      13     working with Todd Turner in a group that's looked 

      14     at trying to come up with new measurement tools 

      15     for student athlete academic success.  One of the 

      16     things I think everyone can agree on is that the 

      17     federal student athlete graduation rate is 

      18     flawed, and so the idea of having a management 

      19     tool for a president to use that's real time to 

      20     evaluate a coach and how well he does with a 

      21     certain class of student athletes is pretty 

      22     meaningful.  And so I think that's a great idea.  

      23     And then I think Todd is going to bring home this 

      24     system of incentive and disincentive program, and 

      25     I don't know if he'll elaborate on that, but this 




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       1     is an idea where we basically do as Scott 

       2     suggested:  We reward those programs that do 

       3     well, and we look to penalize those that don't do 

       4     well in the context of academic performance of 

       5     their student athletes. 

       6                  The second subject or topic is 

       7     student athlete welfare.  Here I don't give us an 

       8     "A," I give us a "B."  I think many of us have 

       9     continuing concerns about the time demands issue, 

      10     and it's hard because on the one hand you've got 

      11     football players and coaches that are motivated 

      12     to make sure their kids are big and strong, and 

      13     in some cases the student athletes that need the 

      14     most academic help are the student athletes that 

      15     are being pushed to spend the most amount of time 

      16     on the field or on the court, but you've also got 

      17     some high-achieving student athletes, both 

      18     athletically and academically that are swimmers 

      19     and Olympic sport participants that can make 

      20     straight As and they can also train for the 

      21     Olympics.  So balancing that is pretty hard.  So 

      22     I think we've done a pretty good job in that 

      23     area, but I think there's more work to be done.  

      24                  In the area of student athlete 

      25     welfare relative to benefits and opportunities, I 




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       1     applaud the NCAA.  There's more funding available 

       2     for student athletes than there's ever been 

       3     before.  We have a special assistance fund to 

       4     meet particular needs of student athletes.  We 

       5     have a new opportunity fund.  So the idea that 

       6     student athletes are being exploited widely I 

       7     think is an idea that is lesser today than it was 

       8     before.  I think that's a tribute really to the 

       9     leadership.  So in that area I give us a "B."  

      10                  In the area of financial management 

      11     and control, I've got to give us a "C."  I think 

      12     we generally do what most other systems do, and 

      13     families do for that matter, and we spend what we 

      14     have.  We spend what we get, and I think that the 

      15     unfortunate part of this from my perspective is,  

      16     while the labor costs in college athletics, i.e. 

      17     the cost of student athletes, is relatively 

      18     constant -- I know tuition costs are going up -- 

      19     the money that gets pumped into the system 

      20     generally goes to salaries and it goes to 

      21     facilities.  I've seen some of the most 

      22     remarkable locker rooms you can imagine.  They 

      23     rival those of the best professional sports 

      24     teams.  So whether or not that's a good use of 

      25     those resources I think is fair analysis, so I 




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       1     give us a "C" in that area.  I hope we can do 

       2     better.  I'm not sure what we can do.  I think 

       3     getting our arms around that is pretty tricky.  

       4                  The area that I give us a "D" in is 

       5     leadership, behavior and attitudes.  This is the 

       6     way we act as administrators and coaches and 

       7     leaders of higher education, and this year has 

       8     really been a bad year for us, I think.  I think 

       9     we've had more coaches' scandals and more 

      10     university scandals that have captured the 

      11     headlines than we've had in a long time, and 

      12     these things have really, I think, operated to 

      13     detract from the good stories in college 

      14     athletics.  The men's basketball coaches are 

      15     having ethics summits to try and address some of 

      16     these things.  

      17                  I think in the conference 

      18     realignment business -- and I have some personal 

      19     knowledge of how that works -- I think we've lost 

      20     a little bit of credibility there, I really do.  

      21     I think that we got started off on the wrong 

      22     foot.  It concerns me, and I don't want to be 

      23     critical because you never know when your time 

      24     will come, but when a college president in 

      25     relating or describing the position of his 




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       1     conference relative to adding Boston College, and 

       2     he relates it to a suit that he was going to wear 

       3     for a while and try out, but then it needed to be 

       4     altered again, I think that shows a lack of 

       5     sensitivity on the system.  I think that's the 

       6     real problem we have from an individual 

       7     leadership and attitude standpoint.  We're so 

       8     self-interest motivated that we lose sight of 

       9     what's good for the system.  So I'm hopeful that 

      10     over time we'll be able to get a greater sense of 

      11     collective interest, but I'm not real hopeful for 

      12     that in the short-run. 

      13                  And then on to postseason football, 

      14     which is my final category.  Here I think the 

      15     grade is "Incomplete."  I'm not ready to give a 

      16     grade.  We've got a meeting coming up this next 

      17     week that's very important.  You know, it depends 

      18     on who you're talking to as well when you're 

      19     trying to ascertain the degree to which reform is 

      20     necessary in college football.  I see bowl people 

      21     in the room.  I'm sure from a bowl 

      22     administrator's perspective, the degree of reform 

      23     is minimal that's needed.  Personally, I think 

      24     there's great value in the bowl system, but I 

      25     think most would say there's some flaws in the 




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       1     system that need to be corrected.  I think right 

       2     now determining who's number one and number two, 

       3     you know, it's a real challenging situation for 

       4     all of college athletics, and we have a 

       5     controversy set up each year around that.  I 

       6     believe that the one network system we're in 

       7     right now, i.e. ABC and ESPN controlling most of 

       8     postseason football is not necessarily the 

       9     healthiest environment.  

      10                  The biggest thing for me, working 

      11     for the organization that I do, is providing some 

      12     form of meaningful access to the student athletes 

      13     that work real hard to start the season and 

      14     compete at a very high level.  I think that the 

      15     events in the next few weeks and months will 

      16     really tell us a lot about our collective 

      17     willingness to engage in a meaningful discussion 

      18     about change in this area, and I'm hopeful that 

      19     principles of inclusion and fairness will be 

      20     tested in the process.  I'm sure they will.  

      21                  But I'm optimistic.  Personally I'm 

      22     optimistic that college athletics is moving in 

      23     the right direction.  I'm pleased with the 

      24     leadership.  I'm optimistic that we can make 

      25     progress on the football postseason issue.  




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       1     Overall, we're not making the honor roll, but I 

       2     think I would have to give us a passing grade in 

       3     college athletics. 

       4                  (Applause)

       5             MR. THOMPSON:

       6                  First, I don't think anybody has 

       7     said this yet, but I'd like to thank Doctor Cowen 

       8     and his staff for putting on this symposium, very 

       9     important, very topical, and appreciate the 

      10     opportunity.  And, second, to show my bias, the 

      11     fact that you put it on in New Orleans gives me a 

      12     chance to come back to a city I lived in for 

      13     twelve years, and I'm a father of two native New 

      14     Orleanians, and get to see some friends while 

      15     we're here.  So I appreciate on both regards, 

      16     Doctor Cowen.

      17                  You know, it wouldn't be a complete 

      18     day in my life if I didn't talk about the BCS a 

      19     little bit.  It's kind of consumed me for 

      20     probably the last year, year and a half.  While 

      21     Doctor Brand brought out a new speech today, this 

      22     is kind of old and tired.  Some of you have heard 

      23     parts of it, probably most of it, but hopefully 

      24     there's some new information or some things that 

      25     at least will give you pause for thought, and we 




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       1     can have some conversation at the end.  

       2                  I completely agree with previous 

       3     panelists and Doctor Duderstadt's comment about 

       4     the overcommercialization of college athletics.  

       5     I don't know how we can get that back.  We can 

       6     work in those regards, but as Len pointed out and 

       7     others have said, it's such a 

       8     multimillion-billion dollar industry, that we're 

       9     not going to be able to go backwards very 

      10     easily.  And depending upon your personal 

      11     perspective, either the ills of or support for 

      12     the current college postseason are something that 

      13     have generated voluminous media coverage.  

      14     There's not a single day that goes by that 

      15     columnists, talk show hosts, television 

      16     reporters, others, don't weigh in on the topic of 

      17     the BCS, good or bad, chat rooms, internet talk. 

      18                  I've probably personally received in 

      19     excess of 50 different postseason models, and 

      20     that's probably scratching the surface.  I know 

      21     that BCS commissioners and maybe Britton and some 

      22     of the other commissioners, Carl, have received 

      23     even more, but it's a very important topic to the 

      24     thread of college football, and I think it's 

      25     something that, to no great surprise, I feel 




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       1     needs to change, I feel needs to change 

       2     dramatically.  I fall on the side that 

       3     representing a conference that currently does not 

       4     have guaranteed access to the BCS is extremely 

       5     detrimental to the growth and development of a 

       6     young 4-1/2 year old conference.

       7                  The real issue beyond the access, 

       8     and I think that is very important, but I think 

       9     even the larger issue is probably the branding, 

      10     the labeling of BCS versus non-BCS.  Every day, 

      11     365 days a year, our coaches, our administrators 

      12     are trying to build programs and improve their 

      13     programs.  To have this connotation and this 

      14     split between BCS and non-BCS is absolutely 

      15     stifling to our programs.  The system of "have" 

      16     "have-nots" that has been created is frustrating 

      17     because I don't know what the barometers are, how 

      18     we came to determine who is in and who is out.  

      19     Certainly with all the conference movement -- and 

      20     let me go back a moment.  

      21                  Earlier today in a press conference 

      22     somebody asked me the question about the movement 

      23     of institutions to new conferences, and I want to 

      24     go back and touch on one thing.  I think a lot of 

      25     that, if not all of it, was based on, in part, 




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       1     the BCS because there's a better way, a better 

       2     system, more money, greener pastures, et cetera, 

       3     and that has been the cause-and-effect.  A lot of 

       4     conferences then had to fill in their numbers and 

       5     readjust and reappoint placements to keep their A 

       6     team leagues intact, but I definitely feel that 

       7     the BCS was a driving force behind much if not 

       8     all of the movement that we've experienced in the 

       9     last three to four months. 

      10                  Recruiting has been affected 

      11     dramatically.  Despite the efforts of undefeated 

      12     teams in the past, including Tulane, Marshall,  

      13     those institutions in the last four or five years 

      14     have not been invited to participate in the BCS 

      15     bowl, and potential student athletes are now 

      16     choosing other institutions that with one or two 

      17     losses stand a better chance, probably the only 

      18     chance of getting into a BCS bowl, where 

      19     conference members in the five conferences 

      20     labeled non-BCS do not have that opportunity. 

      21                  A couple of weeks ago Lavelle 

      22     Edwards, longtime coach at BYU, testified in some 

      23     Senate hearings about how recruiting affected his 

      24     last couple years, and it's even more dramatic 

      25     since Lavelle has left.  Kids -- I can document 




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       1     all sorts of cases -- that are choosing BCS 

       2     institutions that have really legitimately no 

       3     chance of playing in a BCS bowl, but the fact 

       4     they are in a BCS conference gives them a leg up 

       5     on an 11-and-0 or 10-and-1 non-BCS school.  We've 

       6     talked about the financial disparity.  Nearly 

       7     half of the institutions in Division IA are 

       8     working with maybe 5 percent or less of the 

       9     revenue generated by the bowl system and the BCS. 

      10                  Another major problem for me, and 

      11     I've studied this as others have in great detail, 

      12     is the inequity in the whole system.  The formula 

      13     for selecting a one versus two game and the two 

      14     at-large in my mind is fundamentally flawed.  

      15     Seven independent computer rankings are factors 

      16     as are two human polls.  The computer rankings 

      17     are very disparate.  Not all 65 AP pollsters even 

      18     see how the top 25 performed on a given weekend.  

      19     They can't watch all those games.  Furthermore, 

      20     they don't know perhaps who was injured, who was 

      21     not injured, who played.  And the coaches then in 

      22     the ESPN-USA Today poll maybe have an even have 

      23     less chance to monitor and track what happened on 

      24     a given Saturday.  The last I looked, they're a 

      25     little busy themselves coaching their team.  So I 




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       1     think that that's a problem in both the human 

       2     polls and in the computer polls.  

       3                  If you look at the discrepancies, 

       4     I'm going to point out a couple of examples of 

       5     this week's poll.  Again, the basis of both the 

       6     seven computers and the two polls have to be 

       7     results:  Somebody won, somebody lost.  Pretty 

       8     simple, right?  But when you -- I refer to Peter.  

       9     The decimal point difference is decimal points 

      10     and basically a beauty pageant, the best way to 

      11     determine one versus two as well as the other 

      12     four bowls.  

      13                  Yesterday's rankings, here's a 

      14     couple of examples:  Seven computers.  One team 

      15     in the seven computers was ranked 2nd in a 

      16     computer poll, 25th in another.  Again, same 

      17     results.  Either they won the game or they lost 

      18     the game, but in one poll they're 2nd, in another 

      19     poll they're 25th.  Another top ten team in the 

      20     BCS rankings yesterday was 11th in the two human 

      21     polls, yet 5th in the computer poll.  Now, that's 

      22     quite a discrepancy when that's going to 

      23     determine who's number one in the national 

      24     championship game, and two, who is going to be in 

      25     the other three BCS bowls.  




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       1                  The BCS proponents have claimed that 

       2     the system was set up to establish a true 

       3     national championship game.  I question has this 

       4     really been true.  There's been great fortune in 

       5     that in the last couple of years there have been 

       6     two undefeated teams that are going to play in 

       7     the national championship game.  What's going to 

       8     happen this year, for instance?  Right now we 

       9     currently have two undefeated teams.  It doesn't 

      10     look like there's a chance that those two 

      11     undefeated teams, if they remain undefeated, if, 

      12     will play in a national championship game.  One 

      13     would play in a national championship game, and 

      14     the other one possibly in one of the other three 

      15     bowls.  So which one- or two-loss team will 

      16     likely play as the Number 2 team in the country 

      17     in the national championship game?  

      18                  I'm a firm believer that just like 

      19     the NCA Basketball Selection Committee that 

      20     annually selects participants, the at-large 

      21     people in the 65-team tournament, that there's a 

      22     place for a similar management team in college 

      23     football.  Use the polls, use the computer 

      24     rankings, but let's bring some knowledgeable 

      25     people into the process that have a broad 




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       1     representation, not just those six conferences, 

       2     but the eleven conferences that play IA football, 

       3     and for the good of higher education, let's bring 

       4     in that element.  We use it in all our other 

       5     sports.  All the other championships at the 

       6     intercollegiate level have some sort of selection 

       7     team, have some sort of a management process 

       8     beyond just the flat-out computers and two human 

       9     polls.  

      10                  Again, I think the system is 

      11     inherently unfair.  It ignores the opportunity 

      12     for all Division IA and remains inconsistent with 

      13     other championships conducted.  The system 

      14     protects arguably 63 institutions.  I had a 

      15     wonderful dinner last night, and Todd has been at 

      16     a number of institutions that have been in the 

      17     BCS, and I appreciate his thoughts on it, and 

      18     it's interesting because no matter which side of 

      19     the fence you're on, I think we're getting closer 

      20     to a system now that is a little more compatible 

      21     and is something that people can all live with 

      22     different than what we see it today, so 

      23     encouraged by what's happened over the last two 

      24     or three months or five or six months.  And we so 

      25     much appreciate Doctor Cowen because he sometimes 




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       1     appears to be the lightning rod on this process, 

       2     but he speaks for many people, and again, he's 

       3     got broad shoulders, and we do respect and 

       4     appreciate that.  

       5                  The BCS system not only, as I hope 

       6     I've I pointed out, has some flaws, it's also 

       7     permeated other sports.  It's permeated 

       8     basketball and other issues.  Recently a BCS 

       9     commissioner was quoted as saying, "Every 

      10     athletic analysis goes through the prism of the 

      11     BCS," end quote.  It's a football issue.  Why do 

      12     we have governance issues and basketball issues 

      13     and other sport issues, and again the labeling 

      14     outside of the sport of football in various other 

      15     championships?  It's a football issue.  

      16                  A different commissioner noted that 

      17     in the new Big East, underlined, Basketball 

      18     Conference configuration, that the Big East 

      19     basketball would penetrate 22 percent of the U.S. 

      20     household television sets, and that facet has to 

      21     be taken into account when we talk about the 

      22     potential restructured BCS and automatic 

      23     guaranteed slots.  Are we talking bowl 

      24     championship series or basketball championship 

      25     series?  Again, a distinction that has carried 




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       1     over into other walks of life beyond just college 

       2     football.  

       3                  Again, I emphasize, greatly 

       4     encouraged by the dialogue.  Doctor Brand, 

       5     commissioners, certainly the presidents, a lot of 

       6     people have weighed in, and hopefully over the 

       7     coming months, and certainly beginning on Sunday 

       8     here in New Orleans when the eleven presidents 

       9     get together again, a more sensible and equitable 

      10     system can be fashioned.  Maybe the best news out 

      11     of all this is for the first time the process, 

      12     the system, which was never formally adopted by 

      13     any kind of membership other than six 

      14     conferences, four bowls and a network, has never 

      15     been totally scrutinized as it is today, and for 

      16     that I'm thankful and appreciative, and I think 

      17     that we are in the process of getting change, and 

      18     I look forward to a new structured postseason 

      19     football.  Thank you. 

      20                  (Applause)

      21             MR. TURNER:

      22                  Good afternoon.  My name is Todd 

      23     Turner, and in 1976 I took my first job in 

      24     intercollegiate athletic administration as the 

      25     ticket manager at the University of Virginia.  




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       1     That was a long time ago.  Since then I've been 

       2     the product of three major conferences, the Big 

       3     East, the Atlantic Coast Conference, and the 

       4     Southeastern Conference, and I've worked at four 

       5     very prominent Division I institutions.  I think 

       6     over the period of 27 years, I've had the good 

       7     fortune of developing, really through the school 

       8     of hard knocks as much as anything else, a full 

       9     understanding of the investments that 

      10     universities at that elite level have made in 

      11     their programs, and understand full well the 

      12     resulting pressures that have emanated out of 

      13     that that require success and require effective 

      14     management of the resources that we've been 

      15     given.                 

      16                  Seventeen years as an athletics 

      17     director of Division I, and I have never heard or 

      18     rarely heard discussion like we've heard today 

      19     about reforming intercollegiate athletics, and 

      20     that's really encouraging.  And, Doctor Cowen, 

      21     thank you for assembling this group to begin this 

      22     dialogue.  I only wish that it could be carried 

      23     on beyond the city limits of New Orleans and 

      24     throughout our association, Doctor Brandon, to 

      25     the point where these sort of things are in the 




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       1     board rooms of our colleges and universities and 

       2     really make a difference.  

       3                  Today I want to talk about reform,  

       4     I want to talk about the BCS, I want to talk 

       5     about unfunded mandates, and lastly I mention 

       6     student athletes.  What's driven today's reform 

       7     movement?  Is it a desire to reign in big-time 

       8     athletics and to make it more compatible with the 

       9     true mission and goals of higher education, or is 

      10     it really about economics?  As much as I hate to 

      11     say it, outside of today's discussion, the talk 

      12     appears to me to be more about money and pride 

      13     than it is about higher education's core values.  

      14     The hypocrisy of that is stifling. 

      15                  All too often money and market 

      16     share take precedent over academic and cultural 

      17     priorities, and given as much a close look at 

      18     Division IA postseason football becomes a 

      19     commentary on higher education's athletics values 

      20     as much as it is on the strength of any football 

      21     team or conference.  Well, how did we get into 

      22     this position?  What could we have done to avoid 

      23     it?  What can it teach us as we move forward?  

      24     These questions deserve our strongest 

      25     consideration. 




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       1                  I think it's important to have an 

       2     appropriate historical backdrop for analyzing 

       3     kind of where we are today and how we've gotten 

       4     there, so allow me to do this.  I want to talk 

       5     about unfunded mandates.  

       6                  In the 1970s, Title IX compliance 

       7     became an appropriate and much overdue mandate, 

       8     yet few if any institutions chose to earmark 

       9     money from central university funds to support 

      10     the growth of women's sports programs; rather, 

      11     they looked at the revenue-generating programs on 

      12     the men's side to provide the needed capital.  

      13     Some common sense economics resulted in some very 

      14     good cost containment ideas such as limits on 

      15     scholarships, coaching staffs, schedules; but, 

      16     unfortunately, these limitations also became 

      17     unfunded mandates that defined commitment and 

      18     competitiveness.  How could you be committed if 

      19     you didn't fully fund 85 football scholarships 

      20     and have nine full-time assistant football 

      21     coaches?  For some, even these were beyond what 

      22     they could afford, yet without them they were 

      23     second-class citizens missing out on the rewards 

      24     and the benefits of big-time college football, 

      25     and after all, at the end of the day 




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       1     institutional ego was at risk.  

       2                  The decade of the '80s saw 

       3     universities, and athletic departments in 

       4     particular, scramble to find ways to respond to 

       5     these unfunded mandates.  We chased the 

       6     all-important dollar from every conceivable 

       7     source.  Results are all too familiar today:  11 

       8     A.M. and 9 P.M. kick-off times, midweek games, 

       9     giant TV screens with sponsored replays, 

      10     corporate signages everywhere, naming rights, 

      11     donation-driven priority seating, and luxury 

      12     suites and boxes for the VIPs.  When coupled with 

      13     changes that emerged in the sports media 

      14     industry, 24-hour sports reporting, internet chat 

      15     rooms, life call-in radio, the pressure to win 

      16     and to maximize revenues was greater than ever 

      17     before.  The cost of competing in the big time 

      18     was greater than ever:  bigger stadiums, bigger 

      19     weight rooms, new practice facilities, higher 

      20     paid coaches.  The powerful further distanced 

      21     themselves from the powder puffs.  

      22                  The results of that pressure have 

      23     not been lost on our coaches and they've not been 

      24     lost on the athletes.  Coaches under the mandate 

      25     to fill the coffers and win or be gone are now 




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       1     paid like movie stars.  Some, in fact, have 

       2     become bigger than life, bigger than the game, 

       3     bigger than the institutions that they serve.  

       4     And student athletes have become frighteningly 

       5     close to being the means to an end as opposed to 

       6     the reason for being. 

       7                  Institutions reacting to this spiral 

       8     of commercialism began to respond in the late 

       9     '80s and into the decade of the '90s with rules 

      10     and programs geared at protecting the "student" 

      11     in "student athlete."  Closer scrutiny of 

      12     graduation rates and overall academic performance 

      13     fueled new rules and campus support systems.  New 

      14     NCAA rules raised the bar for entering students, 

      15     and other measures were adopted to better ensure 

      16     that student athletes completed their degrees.  

      17     Consequently, academic support programs sprung up 

      18     in the athletics department.  Champs Life Skills 

      19     programs followed as student welfare become yet 

      20     another unfunded mandate.  

      21                  For the big boys, and what I mean by 

      22     that is those that had earned enough clout in the 

      23     marketplace, responding to these types of 

      24     challenges forced them to again rely upon their 

      25     popularity to generate the resources needed to 




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       1     meet the new challenges.  Conference expansion 

       2     with divisional play and championship games 

       3     capitalized on the public's insatiable interest 

       4     in elite competition and winning.  

       5                  It seems as if the landscape changes 

       6     almost daily.  The gaps widened between those 

       7     with market clout and those without, further 

       8     frustrating those that are left in the dust of 

       9     the "haves."  "Crown a champion" became the cry 

      10     of the sports media and the sports fan.  In our 

      11     part of the world, preserving the bowl tradition 

      12     and growing revenues became the goal of the 

      13     athletic director and the goal of the 

      14     commissioners and the goal of the coaches.  

      15                  First it was the Bowl Coalition in 

      16     1992, then the Bowl Alliance in 1995, and now 

      17     it's the BCS.  Postseason football is in the eye 

      18     of the storm, and it's very little to do with the 

      19     educational values and student athletes.  More 

      20     than anything else, it's about economics, 

      21     institutional pride, and power.  It is not about 

      22     access.  The non-BCS schools have never had 

      23     access.  It's about money, it's about ego, and 

      24     it's about control.  

      25                  Here we are in 2003.  We've got our 




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       1     heads down, we're working hard to try to reform 

       2     intercollegiate athletics, but what kind of 

       3     reform is it?  Is it academic reform? cultural 

       4     reform? competitive reform? postseason football 

       5     reform?  Where should we be putting our energy to 

       6     serve the ideals of higher education?  Should we 

       7     focus our attention on the economics of 

       8     postseason football, or should we be channeling 

       9     our best efforts to protect the ideal of the 

      10     student athlete in amateur intercollegiate 

      11     athletics?

      12                  I, for one, believe that postseason 

      13     football should be left to the marketplace to 

      14     decide who plays and what it pays.  That's the 

      15     American way.  Let the public decide what's 

      16     valuable and what's it's worth.  And decide they 

      17     will.  They'll decide with those remote TV 

      18     clickers, and they'll decide with their 

      19     checkbooks and credit cards.  

      20                  The BCS's focus at the moment:  Is 

      21     it fair?  Is it a cartel?  Is it in restraint of 

      22     trade?  Is it in the best interest of college 

      23     football?  Is it in the best interest of higher 

      24     ed?  The answers to these questions are as varied 

      25     as the academic traditions and the programs at 




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       1     the 117 Division IA playing football 

       2     institutions.  

       3                  For those with competitively strong 

       4     programs, with huge fan followings, and 

       5     mind-boggling investments in their sports 

       6     programs, the BCS makes perfect sense.  It's the 

       7     next best thing available to help fund the 

       8     unfunded mandates of the past and present.  For 

       9     those who aspire to this tier of leverage, the 

      10     BCS is exclusionary, but so is inclusion in the 

      11     American Association of Universities and Phi Beta 

      12     Kappa where you're not included simply because 

      13     you have a nice library or you pay your faculty 

      14     well.  You must earn membership.  Likewise, 

      15     membership in the BCS has to be earned.  

      16                  The separation of the football 

      17     "haves" of the BCS conference from the non-BCS 

      18     institutions isn't new.  This is borne out in the 

      19     history of postseason football.  Here are some 

      20     interesting facts that have emerged out of a bowl 

      21     history that now spans over 100 years and 

      22     includes well over 250 major bowl games.  

      23                  In the 25 years before the formation 

      24     of the Bowl Coalition, the Bowl Alliance, and the 

      25     BCS, only six non-BCS schools played in one of 




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       1     the four BCS bowls.  That's the Orange, the 

       2     Sugar, the Fiesta, and the Rose.  That accounts 

       3     for just 3.1 percent of the bowl opportunities 

       4     during that period of time.  In the 40 years 

       5     prior to the coalition's formation in 1992, there 

       6     have been only eight non-BCS schools among the 

       7     304 participants in the BCS bowls.  That's a 

       8     participation rate of 2.6 percent.  Yet in 2004 

       9     the BCS will share 5 percent of its projected 

      10     $89.9 million in revenue with non-BCS Division IA 

      11     institutions.  That amounts to just about $4.5 

      12     million.  It has also doubled the percentage of 

      13     participation by non-BCS schools in these bowls 

      14     in the 40 years before the BCS came into 

      15     existence.

      16                  The fact of the matter is that 

      17     non-BCS schools have never had significant access 

      18     to the BCS bowls, and the reality is that non-BCS 

      19     schools now have more of a share of the financial 

      20     benefits from the four major BCS bowls than ever 

      21     before.  

      22                  So, what now?  It's not 

      23     inconceivable that BCS conferences and Notre Dame 

      24     would at some point create their own football 

      25     association.  Call it Division IV, call it 




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       1     Division IV-A, call it the College Football 

       2     Association.  That's a familiar name.  The new 

       3     organization -- let's call it the CFA -- would 

       4     set its own rules of membership and for managing 

       5     its football programs, recruiting, staffing, 

       6     eligibility, scholarships, and postseason 

       7     competition.  All would remain good Division I 

       8     members of the NCAA living by the rules of 

       9     Division I for all other sports and contributing 

      10     their assets to the benefit of all Division I 

      11     members through the various NCAA championships, 

      12     such as the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball 

      13     Championship.  

      14                  And what about access?  Access to 

      15     the CFA would most likely be a matter of 

      16     commitment and following.  Commitment in terms of 

      17     scholarships, staffing, scheduling and budget; 

      18     following in terms of attendance, television 

      19     ratings and media interest; and at the end of the 

      20     day, the market would determine who had access.  

      21                  You want me to hurry up?  I'm on a 

      22     roll. 

      23             MR. ELMORE:

      24                  I'm sure there are going to be a lot 

      25     of questions. 




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       1             MR. TURNER:

       2                  I've got just a little more.  This 

       3     is the important part about student athletes that 

       4     I want to mention.  

       5                  All of this is to say that our 

       6     energies and efforts to reform intercollegiate 

       7     athletics are misplaced if we direct them solely 

       8     at postseason football.  Postseason football will 

       9     take care of itself if we take care of the core 

      10     valves that define the playing field.  

      11                  We need to be focused upon changing 

      12     the athletics culture that has evolved on our 

      13     campuses.  Our number one priority should be to 

      14     better define the interface between academics and 

      15     athletics.  The two must be more compatible, and 

      16     you don't achieve it by debating the economics of 

      17     postseason football.  When we make it every bit 

      18     as prestigious to boast a 100 percent graduation 

      19     rate as it is to win the SEC or Big 10 title, 

      20     then we've made some progress.  Reform is more 

      21     than restructuring postseason play, it's ensuring 

      22     that the values and the mission of higher ed are 

      23     primary in the athletics enterprise.  

      24                  Winning on the field will always be 

      25     important.  It's an important measure of 




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       1     excellence.  So if you can't win unless your 

       2     athletes are actively-engaged students, then 

       3     behavior and priorities will change to 

       4     accommodate winning.  That's an important 

       5     thought.  Our academic progress rules need to 

       6     change to enable competitive advantages to those 

       7     that abide by them.  When this happens, the 

       8     national champion, no matter how you choose to 

       9     crown them, will truly represent all that is good 

      10     about athletics, student athletes, and higher 

      11     education.  Thanks. 

      12                  (Applause)

      13             MR. ELMORE:

      14                  I knew there was a reason why I 

      15     saved you for last. 

      16                  At this point we'd like to open up 

      17     the floor for any questions.  You've heard some 

      18     pretty distinct views not only on athletics 

      19     reform but specifically on the postseason play in 

      20     the BCS.  So I'm sure everyone is not of the same 

      21     thought out here in the audience as well, so if 

      22     you have some questions, please step up to the 

      23     mike.  Anyone?

      24             AUDIENCE MEMBER:

      25                  Since this was just discussed, I 




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       1     direct it at Mr. Turner.  I think the issue with 

       2     access for non-BCS schools is not necessarily the 

       3     four bowls that happen to be part of the BCS.  

       4     Before the BCS was invented, those four bowls did 

       5     not control who was the national champion.  Most 

       6     often the national champion ended up playing in 

       7     one of those bowls, but the Cotton Bowl, Holiday 

       8     Bowl have produced national champions as well.  

       9     The access issue is about who ends up being 

      10     national champion and not about who happened to 

      11     play in those specific bowls.  I think that's the 

      12     point that many fans and coaches, administrators 

      13     from non-BCS schools are arguing; not that they 

      14     want to be part of those specific bowls, but that 

      15     they want an actual chance at a national 

      16     championship. 

      17             MR. TURNER:

      18                  That's a perfect comment.  I raised 

      19     the issue about a Division IV or a different kind 

      20     of a championship only for the purposes of 

      21     generating some discussion.  Frankly, I don't 

      22     know how we're going to avoid at some point not 

      23     having a play-off.  It seems to me to be headed 

      24     in that direction, to be fair.  But the context 

      25     of how we get to that, I think all of Division I 




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       1     needs to understand the levels of investment and 

       2     the levels of history that the current BCS 

       3     schools have got invested in this thing, and it's 

       4     going to be hard for them to walk away from that. 

       5             MEMBER OF SYMPOSIUM ORGANIZATION STAFF:

       6                  Len, I just wanted to remind 

       7     everyone who's asking a question to identify 

       8     themselves by their name and affiliation.  Thank 

       9     you. 

      10             MR. ELMORE:

      11                  And your name?  No, just kidding. 

      12             MR. SWILER:

      13                  My name is Carl Swiler.  I'm just an 

      14     alumni of Tulane.  I wanted to point out that the 

      15     University of Cincinnati and Louisville are both 

      16     leaving Conference USA to join the Big East.  

      17     Well, suddenly then they become BCS-eligible.  

      18     What does that say of Conference USA and the 

      19     remaining teams in Conference USA, and they are 

      20     not BCS-eligible?  

      21             MR. BANOWSKY:

      22                  I think the whole system is under 

      23     review right now, and to suggest -- and Craig 

      24     might have a perspective on this -- to suggest 

      25     that the Big East as a conference is the same now 




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       1     without Miami and Virginia Tech and now Boston 

       2     College in terms of strength in the sport of 

       3     football going forward I think is a question mark 

       4     that has yet to be determined. 

       5                  From purposes of Conference USA, I 

       6     mean, obviously we hate to see any of our members 

       7     move on to other conferences, and we really enjoy 

       8     and will continue to enjoy until the time they 

       9     leave, our affiliation with the folks at both 

      10     Cincinnati and Louisville and the other schools 

      11     that are leaving.  But I know that Doctor Cowen 

      12     shares this view, and I certainly do, that in 

      13     many ways creating realignment can be a very 

      14     logical, positive opportunity, and that's 

      15     certainly the way that we're looking at it.  The 

      16     opportunity to group institutions together that 

      17     are more compatible, the opportunity to have more 

      18     geographic proximity, fans to travel to games, 

      19     you know, be able to put it in a better 

      20     perspective is something that we look at as a 

      21     positive.  So I think most of us don't view the 

      22     changes along conference lines of being 

      23     particularly negative relative to Conference USA. 

      24             MR. DAIGLE: 

      25                  Mr. Turner, my name is Jim Daigle,  




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       1     and I'd like to know why Baylor is more 

       2     BCS-worthy than TCU, and why Vanderbilt is more 

       3     BCS-worthy than Tulane University.  That is so 

       4     illogical that I don't understand it, except that 

       5     they're in a conference.  But the institutions 

       6     don't bring anything that an Alabama or a 

       7     Tennessee brings, but they're on the coattail and 

       8     they derive the benefit, and I think it's unfair 

       9     to institutions like Tulane and TCU.  

      10             MR. TURNER:

      11                  And I don't disagree with your 

      12     premise.  The thing that I would say is that just 

      13     as Cincinnati and Louisville have entered the 

      14     BCS, it's not inconceivable that a Vanderbilt and 

      15     a Baylor would some day drop back from the BCS. 

      16             MR. DAIGLE:

      17                  Drop back or be asked to leave?  

      18             MR. TURNER:

      19                  One or the other, it makes no 

      20     difference.

      21             MR. DAIGLE:

      22                  But that's not fair either, is it? 

      23             MR. TURNER:

      24                  Well, the marketplace decides that.  

      25     I'll give you an example.  And I have some great 




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       1     friends that are in these institutions, and it's 

       2     not meant to reflect negatively on them, but it's 

       3     about market and it's about popularity. 

       4                  When Southern Cal played TCU in the 

       5     Sun Bowl, it was a great opportunity for TCU.  It 

       6     generated the lowest rating number in the history 

       7     of the Sun Bowl on television.  That's a 

       8     market-driven thing, has nothing to do with the 

       9     people at TCU or the fact that they are a 

      10     fabulous place, because they have done an 

      11     exceptional job there, but the market was not 

      12     ready for -- there was no interest in TCU's 

      13     participation.  That could very well change.  

      14     They are very good.  And I think that our system 

      15     has to allow for changes in the marketplace that 

      16     are determined by the public and by the 

      17     investments the university is making.

      18             MR. DAIGLE:

      19                  But if it were a basket of 

      20     institutions, and all the institutions 

      21     participated, and the money was bundled to be 

      22     shared by the whole, you wouldn't have that 

      23     problem.  

      24                  And the other question I want to ask 

      25     perhaps of President Brand is:  How can the NCAA 




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       1     regulate academics of the universities, regulate 

       2     what they can and can't pay, and regulate what 

       3     alumni can do in respect to summer jobs, etc., 

       4     etc., etc., but the NCAA cannot do anything about 

       5     the situation of which we speak at the moment? 

       6             MR. BRAND:

       7                  You're not the first person to ask 

       8     that question, and here is the answer:  We're a 

       9     membership organization.  The NCAA national 

      10     office has the powers granted to it by the 

      11     individual institutions.  

      12             MR. DAIGLE:

      13                  Who are the institutions?

      14             MR. BRAND:

      15                  It's the thousand institutions that 

      16     make up the NCAA, in Division IA the 117, as 

      17     represented by the presidents.  They decide what 

      18     they're going to ask the NCAA to do, what powers 

      19     it has, and they retain for themselves other 

      20     powers.  The institutions have autonomy, and 

      21     they've always retained for themselves far more 

      22     power than they've ceded to the NCAA.  In all the 

      23     areas you talked about, they have formally ceded 

      24     those powers to the NCAA, but in Division IA 

      25     football -- and this is unique because in no 




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       1     other subdivision or championship has this 

       2     happened -- but in IA football they have decided, 

       3     the presidents who are the decision-makers here, 

       4     have decided to retain the powers for postseason 

       5     football to themselves. 

       6                  Someone mentioned at the earlier 

       7     panel discussion that this is, at least in part, 

       8     an outgrowth of a mid-1980 Supreme Court decision 

       9     which took away the sole authority of the NCAA to 

      10     control not only postseason football but season 

      11     football as well, and that led to the conferences 

      12     getting together to manage the situation and 

      13     create media contracts by themselves, and that's 

      14     how we find ourselves in this situation to begin 

      15     with.  So we moved away from that in the 

      16     mid-'80s, and that power has never been returned 

      17     through the presidents by those institutions to 

      18     the NCAA.  That's the facts of the matter.  

      19             MR. ELMORE:

      20                  Thank you, Doctor Brand.  Peter?

      21             MR. DALIS:

      22                  It's interesting you bring up the 

      23     model of Baylor and why it is where it is, and I 

      24     talked a little bit about the external community 

      25     that influences so much of what goes on in 




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       1     athletics.  Several years ago the Pac-10 was 

       2     looking at some expansion preliminarily, and we 

       3     looked at the University of Texas as one 

       4     potential while they were still in the Southwest 

       5     Conference, and what we found was that in order 

       6     to take Texas, you had to take Baylor.  Why?  

       7     Because the state legislature was so heavily 

       8     influenced by Baylor graduates that they were not 

       9     going to allow the abandonment of Baylor as a 

      10     major playing institution.  

      11             MR. ELMORE:

      12                  The moral of that story is:  Elect 

      13     Tulane graduates to the legislature.

      14                  (Laughter) 

      15             MR. ELMORE:

      16                  Let me ask a quick question playing 

      17     on Todd's mention of the marketplace.  Many 

      18     people have said that the difference between BCS 

      19     eligible schools and non-BCS eligible schools has 

      20     to do with stadium size, fan base, fan support 

      21     at bowl games and TV ratings.  Todd mentioned you 

      22     have to earn a position.  Some people would ask, 

      23     Craig, why don't the non-BCS schools simply 

      24     upgrade their programs and wait for the 

      25     marketplace to dictate?  You know, you talked 




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       1     about a branding issue.  Obviously, that's an 

       2     obstacle, but why isn't that a reality?   They've 

       3     had the amount of time since the agreement up 

       4     until now to be able to do that to earn that 

       5     membership.   

       6             MR. THOMPSON:

       7                  Well, and I argue that marketplace, 

       8     Len, in that for example BYU, the plaster is 

       9     still wet on a $30 million indoor facility.  Our 

      10     eight institutions -- and I can speak for the 

      11     Mountain West and nobody else -- but our eight 

      12     institutions have expended in excess of $200 

      13     million in football-related facilities and 

      14     upgrades just for that specific sport in the last 

      15     five years, so I buy into that equity for so 

      16     long.  I've been at a lot of institutions, I 

      17     travel every Saturday.  I'm not going to 

      18     denigrate other conferences, but I've been in a 

      19     lot of places that those people aren't quite 

      20     making the equity commitment that some of the top 

      21     level people in their conferences are as well,  

      22     so it is not fair across the board.  

      23                  I think in terms of interest, the 

      24     television ratings are pretty consistent.  It 

      25     doesn't matter, I could take eleven from this 




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       1     side and eleven from that side and tell you what 

       2     the rating is going to be if it's Thursday at 

       3     7:30, if it's Friday at 8:00, or if it's Saturday 

       4     at 9:00.  It's not necessarily who is playing, 

       5     it's the time slot in the day of the week, and I 

       6     think that's been pretty consistent through the 

       7     last couple of years.  

       8                  Going back to the bowl thing, you 

       9     know, the argument is made that the 54 non-BCS 

      10     people didn't participate in those four major 

      11     bowls before the BCS.  Well, if you recall, for 

      12     the last 50-some years the Rose Bowl has been 

      13     exclusively the Big 10 and the Pac-10, and the 

      14     SEC has basically come to the Sugar Bowl for 

      15     decades, and the Big 8 and the Big 12 went to the 

      16     Orange Bowl for decades.  Those bowls weren't 

      17     open even before the BCS, the BCA, or anything in 

      18     the precursor of the early '90s.  The other 

      19     interesting fact, I think is -- I don't know the 

      20     statistic, but if you would go back and chart, 

      21     out of the 63 BCS institutions, probably a third 

      22     or less have ever participated in those four 

      23     bowls either.  I don't think Baylor has been to a 

      24     whole lot of Rose Bowls.  Well, I just mentioned 

      25     Rose Bowl.  Bad example.  Orange Bowl, et 




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       1     cetera.  I think that if you look back, it's 

       2     always been a very high level.  We're probably 

       3     talking legitimately out of the 63 BCS 

       4     institutions, 20 to 25 that do have a higher 

       5     equity investment in football and have 

       6     participated in not only those four bowls but 

       7     other bowls. 

       8             MR. BANOWSKY:

       9                  I think I would agree with most of 

      10     what Craig said.  You look at our universities,  

      11     I mean, they were compelled to upgrade their 

      12     facilities.  They spent -- we did our research -- 

      13     $300 million in the last five years on new 

      14     stadiums, new indoor practice facilities and so 

      15     on.  You know, the marketplace, defining the 

      16     marketplace, who defines the marketplace?  

      17     Generally speaking, it's the networks that own 

      18     all the media contracts and decide who plays whom 

      19     on what dates, and those are relationships that 

      20     are long-term relationships with, guess who, the 

      21     BCS conferences, and those relationships have 

      22     been in existence for a long time.  Is there 

      23     opportunity for others to enter the marketplace?  

      24     I think that's a real question in this system 

      25     right now, and I think that our folks have 




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       1     consistently said give us a chance to compete, 

       2     and we can show our worth in the marketplace.  

       3             MR. ELMORE:

       4                  Just to put a period on that, you 

       5     know, the question of upgrading the programs also 

       6     sounds like the beginnings of an arms race, but 

       7     they did that in the former panel.  We won't get 

       8     into that.  

       9                  Very quickly, we have sat here and 

      10     discussed the BCS and the fairness and 

      11     unfairness, but we all know that right here in 

      12     the Crescent City on November 16th there's going 

      13     to be a summit meeting essentially with the 

      14     presidents of both sides coming together.  Maybe 

      15     our panelists, as we close out this panel, we 

      16     only have maybe four or five minutes left, so 

      17     maybe you guys can limit your remarks to about a 

      18     minute, but what do you expect the presidents to 

      19     do?  With this body of argument out there, with 

      20     the facts that have been thrown back and forth, 

      21     what do you expect them to do?  And, quite 

      22     honestly, what leverage, if any, do the non-BCS 

      23     schools have in a meeting like this, short of 

      24     threatening a lawsuit?  

      25                  Do we want to start with you, Todd, 




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       1     since you went last?

       2             MR. TURNER:

       3                  I expect that the outcome will be 

       4     opening somewhat access for the non-BCS 

       5     conferences to participate.  

       6             MR. ELMORE:

       7                  Any idea of how?  

       8             MR. TURNER:

       9                  Probably a fifth game.  

      10             MR. ELMORE:

      11                  Craig? 

      12             MR. THOMPSON:

      13                  I would agree with Todd.  I don't 

      14     know that it's necessarily a fifth game.  I think 

      15     there will be increased access.  An earlier 

      16     comment, I think ultimately that there's going to 

      17     be a lot of pressure and a hard look at a 

      18     play-off.  I don't know if it will come in this 

      19     2006 edition or not.  

      20             MR. BANOWSKY:

      21                  I don't know what the specific 

      22     outcomes will be, but my sense is these 

      23     presidents really want to try and improve the 

      24     system from all sides, and so I expect there to 

      25     be some really quality dialogue and an agreement 




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       1     to develop a plan going forward. 

       2             MR. ELMORE:

       3                  Peter, you were the proponent of a 

       4     play-off.  Within that particular answer, what 

       5     format would a play-off take, and how could they 

       6     reconcile it obviously with the idea of extra 

       7     games?  Would it eliminate some of the conference 

       8     tournaments?  Would it mean playing deeper into 

       9     January?  

      10             MR. DALIS:

      11                  It would definitely mean playing 

      12     deeper into January for at least four schools.  I 

      13     think the original proposal would eliminate all 

      14     the preseason games as one potential elimination, 

      15     but I think that would be it.  I don't know of 

      16     the correct model, and quite honestly, I don't 

      17     think we're going to see a play-off real quick.  

      18     I just think there's so much resistance in higher 

      19     education, that I don't think it's real, I really 

      20     don't.  I think it's more perception than reality 

      21     in terms of the ills that it would produce, but 

      22     that's just a 65-year-old retired guy saying 

      23     that. 

      24             MR. ELMORE:

      25                  With an awful lot of experience.  




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       1                  The final question, though, that we 

       2     asked is:  What do you expect the presidents to 

       3     do in this meeting?  Anything concrete?  

       4             MR. DALIS:

       5                  I agree with the other panelists.  I 

       6     think there will be an attempt to have some 

       7     movement to reconcile, and I believe the fifth 

       8     game is probably the most realistic.  

       9             MR. ELMORE:

      10                  Well, there you have it, folks.  

      11     We've got one more question.

      12             MR. DAIGLE:

      13                  Why don't the presidents say, 

      14     quote, "It's the money, baby," close quote, and 

      15     not say it's the academics that prevent a 

      16     play-off? 

      17             MR. ELMORE:

      18                  That's a good question.  We've been 

      19     saying that here today that it's certainly about 

      20     the money.  There's a lot of candor out there, 

      21     and I think that a lot of people have admitted 

      22     that; but the fact is, there's got to be a 

      23     balance. 

      24             MR. DALIS:

      25                  And I think there's always a benign 




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       1     tension on most academic campuses about 

       2     athletics.  It really is a juggling act in a lot 

       3     of ways.  In some cases they just don't want to 

       4     see athletics go too far, as was spoken about 

       5     this morning.  I think that's just a reality. 

       6             MR. ELMORE:

       7                  I think this is the last question 

       8     that we can support here.  

       9             MR. KERMIT HALL:

      10                  I think, Len, it may turn out to be 

      11     a comment more than a question.  I'm Kermit Hall 

      12     from Utah State University.  It's fabulous to 

      13     have all of you speculating about what I'm going 

      14     to do on Sunday.  I welcome, however, the 

      15     guidance and counsel.

      16             MR. ELMORE:

      17                  That's the spirit in which it was 

      18     given.

      19             MR. HALL:

      20                  Oh, no, absolutely.  But 

      21     soothsaying, especially in this context, is a 

      22     particularly challenging enterprise.  I do think 

      23     that one of the interesting moments in this 

      24     entire discussion occurred a couple of weeks ago 

      25     when we were in Washington with Chancellor 




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       1     Perlman and some of the other discussion that 

       2     surrounded this issue, and I would say from at 

       3     least this president's perspective, and I would 

       4     use the words that Chancellor Perlman used 

       5     representing his BCS colleagues, that there is no 

       6     functional reason why there cannot be postseason 

       7     play-off that would culminate in the designation 

       8     of a national champion in Division I based on 

       9     what happens in the playing field as opposed to 

      10     what happens in cyberspace.  That being said, 

      11     whether or not we get to that point I think is in 

      12     question, but Division II and Division III I 

      13     think probably have something to teach us in this 

      14     regard, and I was so thrilled and so pleased that 

      15     with the prodding of Senators Biden, Hatch and 

      16     Dewine, that Chancellor Perlman, in representing 

      17     his colleagues, was willing to attest to the fact 

      18     that there's no functional reason why it can't be 

      19     done. 

      20                  (Applause)

      21             MR. ELMORE:

      22                  And as we have tried to do all 

      23     afternoon is pretty much save the best for last, 

      24     so with that comment I'd like to again thank 

      25     President Cowen, Tulane University, all the folks 




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       1     who worked so diligently in putting this 

       2     together, and I thank you for the opportunity to 

       3     be a part of this.  And my panelists, thank you 

       4     for your insight and input and your courage.  At 

       5     the end of the day, I think it's food for 

       6     thought.  You know, there's an awful lot that we 

       7     have to start thinking about with regard to 

       8     athletics reform, and particularly this issue as 

       9     it's on the front burner.  

      10                  And I think one other thing -- and 

      11     Doctor Brand was so gracious to step up to the 

      12     mike -- is that as the general public, we still 

      13     need to understand what it is that the NCAA does 

      14     and can do, the reaches of its authority, and 

      15     once we have fully understood that, we as a voice 

      16     can probably be more effective in bringing about 

      17     the reforms that we need.  Thanks again.  

      18                  (Applause)

      19             MR. COWEN:

      20                  I have the additional task of 

      21     closing remarks, trying to bring this all 

      22     together today.  Of course, I think there's such 

      23     a richness and density to the remarks, it's 

      24     almost impossible to do.  But I want to start 

      25     first of all with a big thank-you.  I want to 




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       1     thank all our panelists, the ones we've just had 

       2     here, our prior panel, and Myles Brand for being 

       3     with us today.  It took a lot of time for them to 

       4     come here to be with us this afternoon, and I 

       5     think it was well worth it, so would you join me 

       6     one more time in thanking all of them?

       7                  (Applause)

       8             MR. COWEN:

       9                  You know, the purpose really of 

      10     today's symposium was education.  We didn't 

      11     expect today to have agreement on any issues, but 

      12     what we did expect today was to come away with a 

      13     greater understanding of what are the issues that 

      14     are really facing us in higher education as it 

      15     comes to intercollegiate athletics; and I don't 

      16     know about you, but I think we have achieved 

      17     that.  

      18                  I have four take-aways from today 

      19     that I wrote down, and I suspect you'll have your 

      20     own list.  First of all, listening to Myles today 

      21     at lunch, I am once again affirmed that the 

      22     collegiate model of athletics really should be 

      23     preserved, and that we should prevent any further 

      24     movement from that model to the professional 

      25     model.  I think everyone agrees to that.  We know 




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       1     that is a difficult task, but yet just the mere 

       2     fact that we have acknowledged it I think is 

       3     important.  

       4                  I think the other thing from Myles' 

       5     speech today that really resonated with me was 

       6     this idea that collegiate athletics should be 

       7     supported for the value it brings to the academy, 

       8     not looked at as a source of support for the 

       9     academy, and I mean financial support.  And the 

      10     message there, quite honestly, is we somehow have 

      11     to discipline ourselves to think about athletics 

      12     much more in terms of the values and principles 

      13     and missions of our institutions and a lot less 

      14     about just the revenue and the money it's 

      15     generating, and I think that's an important 

      16     message. 

      17                  In the panel that we had that Tom 

      18     McMillen was so gracious to host and I was part 

      19     of, along with Bill and Jim, I think what you 

      20     heard was a couple of messages from both retired 

      21     presidents and a current president that 

      22     collegiate athletics has strayed from the values 

      23     and missions of our universities, and reform or a 

      24     total rethinking is needed.  And I know for many 

      25     of you that was probably very depressing because 




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       1     you wanted to hear some good news out there.  But 

       2     the fact of the matter is, there are problems 

       3     that affect us every single day in our 

       4     institutions, and we have to address these 

       5     problems, and that's what you heard today. 

       6                  What you see many times as fans and 

       7     alumni is what's going on in the field and the 

       8     excitement it generates, and we're all very happy 

       9     about that, because it does bring a sense of 

      10     identity and community to our institutions; but 

      11     behind what you see on that field is a myriad of 

      12     issues that has a ripple effect in everything we 

      13     do at our institutions.  

      14                  So I think you heard from the 

      15     presidents today that there's real concern about 

      16     whether athletics has strayed so far from our 

      17     mission and values that it's having an adverse 

      18     effect on the entire enterprise of higher 

      19     education.  And I think you also heard the notion 

      20     of:  Is it fixable?  Will an incremental approach 

      21     really do the job, or does it need a radical 

      22     change or transformation?  

      23                  Well, I suspect we all, especially 

      24     in higher education, would like to sit down with 

      25     a clean piece of paper and do a radical 




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       1     transformation, but I don't think that's going to 

       2     happen.  So the question is:  Are we going about 

       3     reform in a thoughtful way?  And in that regard I 

       4     have a happy message, I think.  I am more 

       5     optimistic today than I was five years ago about 

       6     our efforts to reform athletics, and I go back 

       7     again to the academic reform efforts underway 

       8     right now with the NCAA.  I think that is the 

       9     most positive thing that could have a 

      10     transformative effect on intercollegiate 

      11     athletics if we maintain teeth in that 

      12     legislation, if we really execute it, and people 

      13     take it seriously.  And I do think that issue is 

      14     so much larger than the BCS issue or any other 

      15     issue that we're talking about.  So in that 

      16     second panel, I think you just heard the 

      17     frustrations that presidents have when we deal 

      18     with these issues every day.  

      19                  The third panel I thought was also 

      20     very interesting because, first of all, they had 

      21     a much more balanced view of athletics and a 

      22     positive view, and that is encouraging, because 

      23     these athletic directors and the commissioners 

      24     are the ones that are working on these issues 

      25     every single day.  And the one thing I have to 




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       1     say I've gotten out of this over the last five 

       2     and a half years working with my own athletic 

       3     director, Rick Dickson, who is magnificent, and 

       4     then having an opportunity to meet two new 

       5     athletic directors and commissioners, that these 

       6     are very fine, thoughtful people who do share the 

       7     same values and same qualities that we all do 

       8     about higher education.  That is a source of 

       9     optimism to me, that there are people like this 

      10     and our own athletic director that share those 

      11     values that we all share and themselves are 

      12     grappling with these issues of how to bring 

      13     things back into sync with our institutions. 

      14                  The Bowl Championship Series.  

      15     You've heard both sides of it today, and I really 

      16     want to thank Todd Turner.  That was a courageous 

      17     thing, Todd, to come on my home court and do 

      18     that,  but I think you needed to hear all sides 

      19     of that issue, because this has been one.  The 

      20     one place where I would differ with Todd is, is 

      21     this is a lot more than just money.  Because if 

      22     you take all the money off the table and leave 

      23     the system just the way it is, we'll still be 

      24     fighting for change, because anything that 

      25     creates the perception of a two-tiered system is 




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       1     harmful, and it hurts in recruiting, coaches, 

       2     student athletes and so on.  So, as far as I'm 

       3     concerned, take all the money off the table, the 

       4     arguments are still going to be the same.  But, 

       5     yet, there are very good arguments on both sides, 

       6     and we will I think this Sunday have what I think 

       7     will be a very productive and constructive 

       8     meeting.  

       9                  The last thing I would say about 

      10     this last panel was that it was very refreshing 

      11     to me to see that the issues about athletics 

      12     reform that the presidents have and Myles has is 

      13     shared by all of them, and I suspect even the 

      14     grading system that Britton gave to many was not 

      15     a bad grading system about where we are and how 

      16     we feel about it, and there is comfort to know 

      17     that there is a confluence of evaluation in 

      18     interest amongst all of us. 

      19                  And then the last thing is that 

      20     people have said over and over again:  Athletics 

      21     reform is not a destination.  This is a topic 

      22     that's going to be with us for many decades to 

      23     come.  If you go back and read the history of 

      24     intercollegiate athletics ever since the NCAA was 

      25     formed in about 1906 or 1907, this has been a 




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       1     topic through every single generation.  The 

       2     issues are larger, the money is more at stake, 

       3     but the topics are almost the same.  So I think 

       4     we are at a time right now there's probably been 

       5     more education and discussion of athletics reform 

       6     than we've seen in recent years, and we in fact 

       7     are pleased to have that debate; and under Myles' 

       8     leadership, I suspect we'll see a lot more change 

       9     in a very positive way.  

      10                  My last thank-you goes to Maureen 

      11     Devlin and the Knight Foundation.  Maureen, I'd 

      12     like you to stand up to be acknowledged.  I know 

      13     you don't like to be acknowledged, but I want you 

      14     to.  

      15                  (Applause)

      16             MR. COWEN:

      17                  The Knight Foundation has been a 

      18     group that has pushed for athletics reform for 

      19     many, many years, and I have followed them from 

      20     afar and been a great admirer of their work, and 

      21     Maureen was very helpful to us in just putting 

      22     this conference together, and most of all in 

      23     advancing once again the dialogue around these 

      24     important issues.  So, Maureen, thank you and the 

      25     Knight Foundation. 




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       1                  To all of you today, thank you for 

       2     being with us.  I hope you took away something 

       3     that will make your life better, but most of all 

       4     will make athletics better.  Thank you for being 

       5     with us.  

       6                  (Applause)

       7                        *   *   *

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       1                     REPORTER'S PAGE

       2             I, SIMONE R. BERTUCCI, Certified Court 

       3     Reporter in and for the State of Louisiana, the 

       4     officer, as defined in Rule 28 of the Federal 

       5     Rules of Civil Procedure and/or Article 1434 (B) 

       6     of the Louisiana Code of Civil Procedure, before 

       7     whom this testimony was taken, do hereby state on 

       8     the record:

       9             That due to the interaction in the 

      10     spontaneous discourse of this proceeding, dashes 

      11     (--) have been used to indicate pauses, changes 

      12     in thought, and/or talkovers; that same is the 

      13     proper method for the court reporter's 

      14     transcription of a proceeding, and that dashes 

      15     (--) do not indicate that words or phrases have 

      16     been left out of this transcript; also, that any 

      17     words and/or names which could not be verified 

      18     through reference material have been denoted with 

      19     the phrase "(spelled phonetically)."

      20
                          ______________________________
      21                  SIMONE R. BERTUCCI
                          CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER
      22

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       1                  C E R T I F I C A T E

       2

       3              This certification is valid only when 

       4     bearing my original signature and official seal 

       5     on this page.

       6             I, SIMONE R. BERTUCCI, pursuant to Rule 

       7     30(f) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 

       8     and/or Article 1446 A.(1) of the Louisiana Code 

       9     of Civil Procedure, do hereby certify that the 

      10     above and foregoing was reported by me in 

      11     stenotype, was prepared and transcribed by me or 

      12     under my personal direction and supervision, and 

      13     is a true and correct transcript to the best of 

      14     my ability and understanding.  

      15

      16
                           ____________________________
      17                   SIMONE R. BERTUCCI  (#86155)
                           Certified Court Reporter 
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